Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[ramarren]

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1. I've not ranted and raved about Hasselblad business practices, said the distributor promised something and then gnashed my teeth over it, etc etc.
2. I've given my appraisal of the OP's question. 
3. I went to a couple of demos and reported my impressions about the camera.

 

Sorry, but I have no desire to go to a workshop ... there were two offered over the past five-six months that were located just a few minutes away and I decided I wasn't interested.  

 

I'm not at all angry, or tired of reading about the X1D. I'm just tired of reading all the whining and hyperbolic conjecture. I'd rather read useful information about the camera. The only useful detail that surfaced in this thread in the past twenty pages or so, amidst all the noise, was the fact that the GPS unit is an add-on option in the final release cameras. I'd read that in three other places already, but since it surfaced here before I posted about it I didn't repeat the news. 

 

Thanks for your concern. 

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[Guest]

 I'd rather read useful information about the camera. 

 

 

Couldn't agree more and I still look forward to the LuLa Kevin Raber's coming review of said camera.

[orc999]

ok looks like those about last 50 pages from this thread have gone pretty off topic.

Distribution in my country said they can deliver the x1d in april, specifically a special kit with bag, and 30% hast to be paid as a deposit.

Few months ago I was told something similar.

 

In the meantime to my surprise I found out:

-x1d is slightly lighter

-lenses are significantly lighter

-lenses are almost half the price

-x1d+45/90 is lighter then the SL with one of the zooms and even then the upcoming 50

 

 

-SL will gather more light (with the 50SL)

-offers light M lenses integration

-will probably need less high shutter speeds

-will offer more dof where needed, with less effect on SS/ISO

 

technically the x1d might deliver more details and better color/shadow transitions while the SL should be easier to shoot when light fades.

 

As far I see this forum going I will probably be called a monkey for posting this, but it might help the OP's original question.

[Peter H]

ok looks like those about last 50 pages from this thread have gone pretty off topic.

Distribution in my country said they can deliver the x1d in april, specifically a special kit with bag, and 30% hast to be paid as a deposit.

Few months ago I was told something similar.

 

In the meantime to my surprise I found out:

-x1d is slightly lighter

-lenses are significantly lighter

-lenses are almost half the price

-x1d+45/90 is lighter then the SL with one of the zooms and even then the upcoming 50

 

 

-SL will gather more light (with the 50SL)

-offers light M lenses integration

-will probably need less high shutter speeds

-will offer more dof where needed, with less effect on SS/ISO

 

technically the x1d might deliver more details and better color/shadow transitions while the SL should be easier to shoot when light fades.

 

As far I see this forum going I will probably be called a monkey for posting this, but it might help the OP's original question.

 

 

 

The fast lenses available for the SL (and in fact all FF cameras relative to larger sensor cameras) will, all other things being equal,  unavoidably make them better suited to low-light photography where either a tripod or lighting are inappropriate. 

 

This is an inevitable feature of the sensor format, and is another reason to think carefully about the type of photography you want to use your camera for. 

 

There are many differences between the SL and the X!D, and the forthcoming Fuji GFX50S, and if I were patient enough I'd prepare a spreadsheet to make the differences clear but I don't know how helpful it would be because we each need to assign our own different weightings to the features. For example you may find a fast lens better suited to your use than a slower lens, whereas the next photographer may prefer a leaf shutter lens to a focal plane lens, and unfortunately we can't design our own cameras by selecting individual virtues like that.

[Jeff S]

 

There are many differences between the SL and the X!D, and the forthcoming Fuji GFX50S, and if I were patient enough I'd prepare a spreadsheet to make the differences clear but I don't know how helpful it would be because we each need to assign our own different weightings to the features.

 

I've done exactly that (and modified it many times) to suit my own needs, tastes and preferences.  And I'll keep it to myself. 

 

And when the new M emerges, I'll decide if it's worthy of being added to the list....but I doubt it, given my goals.  The S006 was on an earlier list, but eliminated based on a week's demo.  The remaining contenders will get similar hands-on test before deciding.

 

But the speculation threads are amusing nonetheless.

 

Jeff

[Peter H]

I've done exactly that (and modified it many times) to suit my own needs, tastes and preferences.  And I'll keep it to myself. 

 

And when the new M emerges, I'll decide if it's worthy of being added to the list....but I doubt it, given my goals.  The S006 was on an earlier list, but eliminated based on a week's demo.  The remaining contenders will get similar hands-on test before deciding.

 

But the speculation threads are amusing nonetheless.

 

Jeff

 

 

It all comes down to the Fuji v the Hasselblad for me. The SL didn't really get out of the stalls for me, though I ended up giving it a lot of time and consideration since so many people enthused about it.

 

So between the two most attractive options (X1D and GFX) I'm virtually certain that the Fuji will win on specs and flexibility and price.

 

The X1D will probably win on simplicity and ease of use, but that's all guesswork at this stage, as are so many other things.

 

I realised a while ago that if I'd ever drawn up a spreadsheet to help me choose between an M and a DSLR, I would have ended up choosing a DSLR unless I'd had the foresight to give "pleasure and ease of use" an overwhelming weighting. In the event I had to own both for a good long time before the right choice emerged of its own accord. I'm now trying to apply the same type of intuitive logic to this decision. Which is why the X1D is in the lead at this stage...

[anickpick]

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I had the chance to handle both, the Fuji and the Hasselblad. 

 

The Fuji is much bigger and feels "cheap" in the hands. It is like comparing a Leica M to a Fuji -XPro 2. For me, this is a no go.

 

The Hasselblad feels really well made. It is a really nice feeling handling it (the lenses are a different story).

Autofocus (latest Firmware) was better than expected. I am quite certain that AF is faster than with the Leica S.

Moving the Focus Point is not very intuitive. You have to press a button and than select the focus point on the touch screen...

I realised that the body got really warm after only 5 minutes of shooting. I wonder whether this induces thermic noise.

What really turned me off: The sound of the leaf shutter. It's a loud, metallic sound. Very unusual. I cannot imagine using the Hasselblad for weddings or other discreet shootings.

In the end, the Hasselblad only makes sense if you really need the 50mp in a small package. If you do, the X1D is the way to go.

[Joshua Lowe]

The X1D seems like a good camera for use in the field for portraiture and style.  I don't know enough about architectural or landscape photography to know how good it will be, I guess that depends on the lenses?  Would a tilt-shift option make it more appealing for those?

It seems mostly to be geared for taking medium format digital out of the studio and into the field with less bulk, but that doesn't necessarily mean it makes for a good street/travel/tourism camera.

 

I'm still interested in it, the panorama mode in particular.  I assume it's just a crop but I'd still like to try it out. 

[meerec]

ok looks like those about last 50 pages from this thread have gone pretty off topic.

 

As far I see this forum going I will probably be called a monkey for posting this, but it might help the OP's original question.

You're a monkey LOL ;-)

[keithlaban.co.uk]

I tried using a spreadsheet but the resulting images were crap. 

[Guest]

Should have gone to specsavers!

[Peter H]

For info, this is on the Hasselblad website now:

 

 

 

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GPS External Module

"Supplied as standard with the X1D, the unit integrates seamlessly with the camera via the hot shoe connection. The module uses dual satellite systems (GPS & GLONASS) for higher positional accuracy, and an improved CNR. Being hot shoe based the unit can be removed when not required, thus saving battery power. Additionally, being removable the unit can be upgraded very easily when newer modules become available."

[IkarusJohn]

... Additionally, being removable the unit can be upgraded very easily when newer modules become available."

Take note, Leica!

[mmradman]

Take note, Leica!

True, only GPS receiver is not dependant on camera processor.

[LD_50]

Take note, Leica!

What would be upgraded on a GPS module to make one want to buy a new one? I can't think of any changes I would want.

 

I would rather see the EVF upgradeable.

[pop]

True, only GPS receiver is not dependant on camera processor.

No, but it might be desirable to add a receiver which can receive the European or the Chinese versions of the GPS.

[IkarusJohn]

I've used GPS receivers for 20 years for paragliding and other adventure sports, and speed and accuracy has improved considerably over that time.

 

Whether processor performance is the issue or not is a matter for Leica - I see that as an excuse. As a user, I like products to be future compatible, as far as possible; I don't like technical reasons for why this might be (especially when that technical reason is that Leica persists in using an old processor).

 

What this sort of discussion overlooks is that Leica is selling a bullet proof body with brass topdeck and bottom plate, leather covering ets for a considerable premium. I resented the idea that Leica had failed to protect its supply lines by having long term replacement sensors for the M9 available, LCDs for the M8 (and who knows what next); I particularly loath the idea of a premium product being let down by crappy component choices.

 

I appreciate that this is all history, and Leica (eventually, once they realised the issue wasn't going away) did the right thing. But the seeds of these hiccups are sown at the product design and development stage. My ideal M camera is one which does the best it can at the one thing it's designed to do - take stills with manual lenses and direct control of ISO, aperture, shutter and focus. What goes on under the hood is up to Leica, provided it is future compatible and the electronic bits are of the same quality, and have the same usable life, as the rest of the camera. I would forego everything else, if the M was future compatible.

 

Not holding my breath this time round, but this is something Leica needs to come to grips with, I think.

 

Cheers

John

Edited January 15, 2017 by IkarusJohn

[Guest]

For info, this is on the Hasselblad website now:

 

GPS External Module

Great it is small! Will save battery life when I don't need it. Good solution I am pleased about this.

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[ramarren]

Great it is small! Will save battery life when I don't need it. Good solution I am pleased about this.

 

 

I agree as well. 

 

Unfortunately, the notion of interchangeable and upgradeable sensors, viewfinders, etc, breaks down in the context of small form factor, highly integrated devices like cameras, smartphones, etc. It's a very very difficult thing to do profitably and actually quite difficult to sell and support. Ricoh tried the concept with the GXR camera system: the GXR was technically and functionally a big success, but a market failure. It was hard to explain to customers why the camera was pricier than the competition, then hard to support customers with the multiple firmware revisions needed for all the modules, keep them synchronized, etc. When basic needs required upgrading (like bus speed for higher pixel count sensors) you were back right at the beginning needing to upgrade three components, not just one. Although the concept is appealing, it just doesn't work in a practical sense. 

 

I have some personal experience in this. At Apple, for some years we offered upgrade packages for various models in the line. It turned out to be a hugely unprofitable endeavor: the upgrades never made the company a dime and cost a huge amount in support costs. It didn't inspire much customer good will either .. too much complexity and too costly, too many ways for it to go wrong. We dropped the program as impractical and unprofitable. 

 

Nothing lasts forever: Build a good product, back it up with sensible support, and have an appropriately improved and priced replacement available when the original product's lifespan is up.

[IkarusJohn]

...Build a good product, back it up with sensible support, and have an appropriately improved and priced replacement available when the original product's lifespan is up.

This would be a good start. Leica is almost there, but I remain somewhat nervous about Leica's ability to support existing products into the future. Why? Well, the M8 LCD and M9 sensor issues spring to mind. To be fair, they have solved the M9 sensor problem - I'm holding off sending my Monochrom in for replacement, but I'm not sure for how long.

 

I'm happy with the level of technology I have. I accept that Leica will probably not be able to replace the viewfinder on my M3 if is gives up the ghost, but that is reasonable. I want the same level of support for my Monochrom, M60 and M-A. Unrealistic? Well, I think that is what I paid a not insubstantial premium for - they were advertised as "cameras for life" when I bought them. That is, actually, a promise which it is possible to keep, provided there's a will to do so. Suppliers will keep producing components, provided someone will pay for them.

 

Cheers

John

Edited January 15, 2017 by IkarusJohn