Leica SL or Hasselblad X1D

[Peter H]

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No, it's not subjective. It's ignoring the fact that the bulk on the SL comes from its native lenses which are 24-90 and 90-280 zooms or the fast 50/1.4. I wonder how "bulky" equivalent lenses for the X1D would feel. Makes me wonder how reliable all this gushing is.

No, I'm not that stupid.

 

If I hadn't emphasised that it was a subjective report you might be right to wonder how reliable it was, but I can assure you that it certainly is subjective. Reliably so.

 

I don't "ignore" the bulk of the SL lenses either, though I have said previously that I ( that is me, personally, subjectively) found it relatively cumbersome with M lenses attached, largely because I find the grip uncomfortable for extended use.

 

Also, I like it when the size of a camera relates to its sensor and the SL feels to me as though it ought to carry a larger sensor than an M. Subjective stuff, as I say.

[tom0511]

For Peter, and anyone else who has used this camera for an extended period (I don't mean days, but continuous use), a number of issues remain unresolved for me:

 

(1)  EVF - is there a significant black out? (Leica T, M(240) levels would be a killer for me, whereas the SL is no worse, and probably better than what you get with an SLR) and what is the EVF experience like - refresh rate, relatively low resolution etc

 

(2)  Heat - this is a big sensor in a small body.  Have you noticed increased noise or other heat related issues when taking a number of shots in succession?

 

(3)  Lenses - Ming Thein raves about the 90mm (75mm equivalent field of view), but that makes for a big camera overall.  The 30mm would be appealing as a companion to the 90mm (thereby skipping the 45mm - 35mm field of view)

 

This camera could easily end up being a system for me, which would mean ditching either the M system I have or the SL system.  Not too keen on either option, to be honest; particularly with an untested system ... My chances of a demo are limited, at best.  

 

What I would need to do is to buy the X1D and a lens, and see where I get to from there.  Either keep it, or reduce my M system.  I'm not sure where I would start!

 

With the M we have faster lenses. So as soon as light beomes quite low/ available light will be more difficult with a X1D. Plus less DOF at comparable F-stop for larger sensor means one has to stop down further to get comparable DOF.

On the other side the X1D will probably have n chance in regards of speed and flexibility to compare to a Leica SL.

So IMO there might be some overlay between a X1D and both the SL / M. But I dont really believe it can replace either for most users. Of course depends what one does and how one uses the camera.

[Peter H]

With the M we have faster lenses. So as soon as light beomes quite low/ available light will be more difficult with a X1D. Plus less DOF at comparable F-stop for larger sensor means one has to stop down further to get comparable DOF.

On the other side the X1D will probably have n chance in regards of speed and flexibility to compare to a Leica SL.

So IMO there might be some overlay between a X1D and both the SL / M. But I dont really believe it can replace either for most users. Of course depends what one does and how one uses the camera.

Yes, I agree that there's a distinct place for each of these excellent cameras. It's all a matter of how you intend to use them, the subject matter you prefer, and then personal preferences to do with handling and so on.

 

They are not different versions of equivalent cameras, they are different types of cameras and should be assessed as such.

 

Unfortunately, few of us can own all of them so we end up making choices between them on bases that are often inappropriate for other people.

Edited November 24, 2016 by Peter H

[Guest]

I had my demo today, that is one very nice camera. It looks good, weight surprised me with both 45mm and 90mm lens. Was allowed to keep a photo I took and I have to say I would be very pleased with the images.

 

What I wasn't sure about was the range on the Diopter wheel to adjust viewfinder. I could not seem to get it right, even though it has more range than on my SL which I can adjust perfectly. So a bit puzzled whether or not this is just the demo cameras both versions of it, or what.

[Tmuussoni]

Last weekend I had the chance to use the X1D. And I admit I am totally in Love with the Hassy. What ever feelings or desire I had for SL kinda disappeared. All lenses are extremely sharp, corner to corner. Already from wide open. And I mean Zeiss Otus sharp. Both body and lenses' Built quality is fantastic. Too bad the lenses are focus by wire, so I think there is no infinity hard stop (I actually forgot to test this ). But I guess I would be ok to live with this. EVF is  about Sony A7 level. Not as good as SL. But to me it's good enough. I guess I like EVFs. Since it was demo versions some features are still missing but I have no doubt Hasselblad won't get these things fixed with time.  So here's the good: Awesome dynamic range, extremely high quality IQ and toanlity and relatively compact factor. Body + 45mm feel surprisingly good and small together. Grip is just excellent. Perhaps the best grip I ever used.  And it's great to see Long exposures are working really well. At least for 10 minute ones I don't see any hot pixels. Then again I live in Finland I understand the S007 still has limitations for long exposures. Something which the Hassy does not have.

Yes, the lenses are bit on the slow side so for many this would not replace 35mm systems. But I am glad Hasselblad went with these slower F-stops to keep the size decent. The size advantage over S007 is definitely a real one. So right now I am bit baffled what to do. I was all set to get the next M. But now that the rumors are pointing out to the same 24 MP sensor as the SL has the Hasselblad X1D is very, very interesting alternative. And you definitely can see the different with 24 MP vs 50 MP.

Here are some bad things I noticed. Note that Demo version is known for these:
- Only center point AF
- I did not find exposure bracketing? Maybe I just missed it
- Diopter wheel does not have a scale. Very annoying to adjust
- Sluggish start up time. I'm sure final firmware greatly improves this.
- No AWB. But I guess that was not an issue for me.
- Phocus mobile software is only available for IOs systems. No Android. Hopefully they will fix that some day. After all there are more Android users than IOS users!
- I did not find way a way to turn off or on exposure simulation?


Here are Few Samples with the X1D. Hope the images are not too large. Top two ones are shot with the 45mm and the last one is shot with the 90mm. 

The Drunken Sauna by Teemu Kustila, on Flickr

Bon voyage by Teemu Kustila, on Flickr

City that never sleeps by Teemu Kustila, on Flickr
 

 

What would the X1D do for you what the S007 doesnt ? I can see that its smaller, but compared to a Leica M or Fuji its still big lens.

 

X1D is half the weight of S007, and the body and lenses are twice as cheap. And Hassy has Leaf Shutter. In my opinion image quality is as good for both. So those are pretty huge reasons!
 

 

I had my demo today, that is one very nice camera. It looks good, weight surprised me with both 45mm and 90mm lens. Was allowed to keep a photo I took and I have to say I would be very pleased with the images.

 

What I wasn't sure about was the range on the Diopter wheel to adjust viewfinder. I could not seem to get it right, even though it has more range than on my SL which I can adjust perfectly. So a bit puzzled whether or not this is just the demo cameras both versions of it, or what.

Yes, this really annoyed me. They really need to put some kind of scale on the Diopter wheel. Otherwise you just have to look at the EVF and guess what is the correct neutral position (for me).



 

Edited November 24, 2016 by Tmuussoni

[steppenw0lf]

OK, just go on fussing about size - but this is not really crucial.

But more important is that it is another camera - another 10000 bucks - for nothing really different.

As your photos just showed.

You need to publish them in Flickr or another high-resolution place to perhaps show a small difference. Currently I have not seen any photos that really showed a difference.

 

So IF I would make prints wider than 1m, yes, then it would be a viable option for me (no doubt). But I am not and most others are also not - the business is in the internet and not in printing (for 99%). And for amateurs there is also no need for this print size - unless they are very rich, they simply run quickly out of wall space.

 

Ok. you can say it is cheap because it is only 10000 and not 30000 anymore. But this is simply a distortion of reality.

 

And yes, I agree: If there were small Leica SL primes  (not miniature, but only small, about 300-500g like most ordinary prime lenses), then very few people would consider the X1D primes attractive. (Leica does not really understand this, but not important).

Edited November 24, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[steveBK]

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And yes, I agree: If there were small Leica SL primes  (not miniature, but only small, about 300-500g like most ordinary prime lenses), then very few people would consider the X1D primes attractive. (Leica does not really understand this, but not important).

I think for a lot of people that's the point. It's likely in the future to be a bit more well rounded, but right now is maximalist with no balancing of performance vs size/weight (ignore cost, this is Leica).

 

I think it's really gotten under my skin as it's really close to something I'd want to buy, but far enough away that I just can't justify it.

Mainly an M user for 10+ years, last 8 months shooting a ton of Leica Q.

On mirrorless - I owned the first Olympus E-P1 way back when, gave up and went back to to M8.

Tried to love Sony A7 series for 18 months and now I'm being unsatisfied by m4/3...

I'm pretty much the target market for a Leica mirrorless.

 

I had the chance to get a used SL in HK (from a reputable shop) @ 40% below US asking price, and still couldn't bring myself to pull the trigger. In the back of my mind I kept saying if I bought it and hate it, I can still re-sell it in US used for basically 0 loss. Yet I just still couldn't justify it.

 

Ship a set of f2.4 lenses (or whatever it takes to get them near 500g) at 28/35/50/85mm and the user base will expand rapidly.

I can't even see that in their multi-year lens roadmap.

By the time they ship lenses I want there will probably be an SL mk II.

 

I worry they are trying to hedge and not overlap with the M use case too much to try and "protect" the M.

 

I'm sorry if I'm being repetitive, but I hope someone at Leica is reading this. Oh and if you are - fix your US service center, pronto.

[Jeff S]

OK, just go on fussing about size - but this is not really crucial.

But more important is that it is another camera - another 10000 bucks - for nothing really different.

As your photos just showed.

You need to publish them in Flickr or another high-resolution place to perhaps show a small difference. Currently I have not seen any photos that really showed a difference.

 

So IF I would make prints wider than 1m, yes, then it would be a viable option for me (no doubt). But I am not and most others are also not - the business is in the internet and not in printing (for 99%). And for amateurs there is also no need for this print size - unless they are very rich, they simply run quickly out of wall space.

 

Ok. you can say it is cheap because it is only 10000 and not 30000 anymore. But this is simply a distortion of reality.

 

And yes, I agree: If there were small Leica SL primes  (not miniature, but only small, about 300-500g like most ordinary prime lenses), then very few people would consider the X1D primes attractive. (Leica does not really understand this, but not important).

 

 

I agree that internet shots waste many important distinctions.  However, I use cameras only to make prints (your 1%), and I can assure you that I don't have to print to 1m or larger to often notice significant differences between 35mm and medium format in terms of color, tonality, details, etc (both b/w and color) in print sizes at or even below A2 (about 16x20 inches).  Of course one needs a disciplined workflow from camera to print (and to display) to realize full potential.  The camera/lens combination is only one of many important variables, and not everyone will achieve the same print results, just like not everyone will be equally successful taking pictures.  They're just tools.

 

I commented earlier (post 735) about the lack of smaller and lighter primes for the SL; it's the reason I'm considering other systems (that also have robust weather sealing like the S/SL).  Too bad, since the M and SL would have made decent complementary systems for me.   

 

Jeff 

[sortvitt]

...Here are some bad things I noticed. Note that Demo version is known for these:

- Only center point AF

...

- Phocus mobile software is only available for IOs systems. No Android. Hopefully they will fix that some day. After all there are more Android users than IOS users!

...

 

Thanks for the write-up. I share your enthusiasm after visiting Hasselblad HQ last month. To your comments above (according to the Hasselblad rep): Multi-point AF will be implemented. No plans for Phocus on Android.

 

How was battery life?

[Tmuussoni]

OK, just go on fussing about size - but this is not really crucial.

But more important is that it is another camera - another 10000 bucks - for nothing really different.

As your photos just showed.

You need to publish them in Flickr or another high-resolution place to perhaps show a small difference. Currently I have not seen any photos that really showed a difference.

 

So IF I would make prints wider than 1m, yes, then it would be a viable option for me (no doubt). But I am not and most others are also not - the business is in the internet and not in printing (for 99%). And for amateurs there is also no need for this print size - unless they are very rich, they simply run quickly out of wall space.

 

Ok. you can say it is cheap because it is only 10000 and not 30000 anymore. But this is simply a distortion of reality.

 

And yes, I agree: If there were small Leica SL primes  (not miniature, but only small, about 300-500g like most ordinary prime lenses), then very few people would consider the X1D primes attractive. (Leica does not really understand this, but not important).

 

Forgive me for fussing about the size. But for many of us size matters a lot. It's a selling point for this camera. X1D is 122 grams lighter than SL and about same size. You can fit X1D+45mm inside the body of Pentax 645Z. Source: http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/wanna-know-good-gfx-x1d-image-quality-will-just-look-645z-files-review/

That's remarkable. But ok, enough about size. You are right that the output quality matters the most only when you print big. I don't think nobody is denying that. But there's more than that in the Hassy. 16 bit color, leaf shutter, stunning dynamic range (Yes, this Sony 44x33 sensor is amazing in terms of dynamic range) and price. I can't think of a better digital landscape camera. You are right 10 000 is a lof of money. But think it this way. X1D + 45mm = 11290 $. Lot of money. Leica SL + Vario-Elmar-SL 24-90 = 12400 $.  Even more money. I know apples vs oranges, but a 35mm prime is not yet available for SL. Leica S007 + 45mm CS = 24695 $. A lot, lot more money. So it's not a distortion of reality to say it's lot more affordable than other systems currently available. I think we have a good reason to be excited about this. It's a game changer. Fuji GFX is going to be even more a game changer. But I am more interested in the Hassy because of the leaf shutter. Awesome feature to have

 

 

Thanks for the write-up. I share your enthusiasm after visiting Hasselblad HQ last month. To your comments above (according to the Hasselblad rep): Multi-point AF will be implemented. No plans for Phocus on Android.

 

How was battery life?

 

No problem. Battery life is pretty good. I did not even exhaust the battery in my days of shooting. My rep told me it's 4-5 hours of continuous shooting. Good for >400 shots. I don't doubt what he told me. The battery is huge, 3200mAh.

 

 

 

Edited November 25, 2016 by Tmuussoni

[thighslapper]

Camera and images all look wonderful.......

 

.... but there is the perennial issue of buying into another SYSTEM for many of us..... another round accumulating gear, probably over several years until you have everything you need ...... by which time the next whizzo camera has superseded it ...

 

The great advantage of the SL was backward compatibility with almost everything Leica has ever made .... painlessly and fully exploiting the lenses optical excellence, with the limited AF offerings complemented by existing M lenses. 

 

Currently I have no way of fully exploiting the capabilities of a 24mpx sensor ..... let alone a bigger one..... and all the other benefits (DR etc) are marginal. 

 

Despite being habitually financially incontinent (although not quite to Neil's extent) I think this is one camera system I will pass on for now. 

Edited November 25, 2016 by thighslapper

[Peter H]

Camera and images all look wonderful.......

 

.... but there is the perennial issue of buying into another SYSTEM for many of us..... another round accumulating gear, probably over several years until you have everything you need ...... by which time the next whizzo camera has superseded it ...

 

The great advantage of the SL was backward compatibility with almost everything Leica has ever made .... painlessly and fully exploiting the lenses optical excellence, with the limited AF offerings complemented by existing M lenses. 

 

Currently I have no way of fully exploiting the capabilities of a 24mpx sensor ..... let alone a bigger one..... and all the other benefits (DR etc) are marginal. 

 

Despite being habitually financially incontinent (although not quite to Neil's extent) I think this is one camera system I will pass on for now. 

 

 

 

I don't think you have to be able to fully exploit the qualities of different sensors to be able to appreciate their differences.

 

Even at A3 size, I can see differences between prints from my M (I don't have an SL) and from the X1D I tried out. I'm probably nowhere near to fully exploiting either, but their characteristic qualities are not only visible at the limits and extremes, even though that has become a popular way of assessing  photographic equipment.

 

Im not arguing that one is better than the other, of course.  But there are differences.

[Guest]

Peter fully agreed there are differences.

[Guest]

But I am more interested in the Hassy because of the leaf shutter. Awesome feature to have

 

Shutter was a remarkably quiet noise on my demo. 

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 

 

 

Despite being habitually financially incontinent (although not quite to Neil's extent) I think this is one camera system I will pass on for now. 

 

 

I'm no longer living in Scotland I live in another continent

[Peter H]

 

 

 

 

I'm no longer living in Scotland I live in another continent

 

 

 

No wonder you had to leave the country with jokes like that!

[steveBK]

Like a few of you above, I'm interested in the Hassy at this price/size point, or since I am in no present need to buy.. the Fuji GFX system.

 

Fuji brought about the "high end compact digital" revolution with the x100, and the whole X series of APS sensor size cameras is really nice. They clearly are "made by photographers, for photographers" type of cameras. Will be interesting to see what they do in MF, since they have a long film MF heritage

[saxo]

 

....

The great advantage of the SL was backward compatibility with almost everything Leica has ever made .... painlessly and fully exploiting the lenses optical excellence, with the limited AF offerings complemented by existing M lenses. 

 

C..... 

 

The Leica Sl is like a swiss army knife: extremly versatile. You can attach a huge range of lenses, not only Leica lenses. (And it is (in my opinion) the best camera for leica M-lenses.) Excellent viewfinder, weatcher sealed, very good video capability, an ergonomic user interface.

 

Together with the standard zoom, you have a tool that covers most of the photographers demand, including fast autofocus, image stabilisation, excellent near makro performance and weather sealed. Don't even think of a zoom like the 24-90 for the X1d, it would be huge.

 

Just my opinion

 

PS: you can't even use the legendary Hasselblad-Zeiss lenses on the X1D. That's a no go for me.

Edited November 25, 2016 by saxo

[Jeff S]

Shutter was a remarkably quiet noise on my demo. 

 

I don't remember shutter and re-cock sound from my June demo, so must have been fairly unobtrusive.  But a recent video interview on LuLa presented an obnoxious clanking sound, which seemed to startle even Kevin Raber, who gave an otherwise glowing impression.  I hope the production model doesn't sound like that.

 

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS]

 Don't even think of a zoom like the 24-90 for the X1d, it would be huge.

 

Just my opinion

 

I dont think so pal