Is Leica really behind Sony in sensor technology?

[cirke]

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I'd like a fabulous sensor

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[mjh]

Is the same company that produced the M240 sensor still producing and developing sensors for the Leica brand?

CMOSIS developed the sensors for the M (Typ 240), M Monochrom (Typ 246), and the S (Typ 007), but as CMOSIS is fab-less the actual manufacturing is done elsewhere. Leica is also sourcing sensors from Sony (for the X and T line) and an officially unnamed manufacturer (for the Q and SL). As to the source of sensors for future models that’s anyone’s guess.

[gpwhite]

CMOSIS developed the sensors for the M (Typ 240), M Monochrom (Typ 246), and the S (Typ 007), but as CMOSIS is fab-less the actual manufacturing is done elsewhere. Leica is also sourcing sensors from Sony (for the X and T line) and an officially unnamed manufacturer (for the Q and SL). As to the source of sensors for future models that’s anyone’s guess.

 

Michael,  you did not mention the typ 262 (and M-D 262). Are the sensors for these bodies also supplied from an officially unnamed manufacturer? Leica has acknowledged that the 262 sensor is "technologically different" than the 240. What are the unofficial rumors for supply...  the Israeli outfit?

[james.liam]

Michael,  you did not mention the typ 262 (and M-D 262). Are the sensors for these bodies also supplied from an officially unnamed manufacturer? Leica has acknowledged that the 262 sensor is "technologically different" than the 240. What are the unofficial rumors for supply...  the Israeli outfit?

 

I recall reading that the sensor of the Q was fabricated in Israel. It would make little sense for Leica to source the M262's from someone other than CMOSIS.

 

As an aside the Ricoh GR shares the same sensor as the now-discontinued Nikon Coolpix A.

Despite reportedly using the same Sony sensor, the cameras render very differently.

[jaapv]

TowerJazz has  facilities all over the world, including the USA and Germany. I dont think that there is a geographic component in play here.

[Giulio Zanni]

Then why do Sony sensors tend to function better in Nikon cameras than in their own offerings?

 

I don't think so. Moved from D800 to A7R which have the same sensor and I had no need to use long exposure noise reduction on the Sony, while on the Nikon was mandatory 

[AB007]

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I don't think so. Moved from D800 to A7R which have the same sensor and I had no need to use long exposure noise reduction on the Sony, while on the Nikon was mandatory 

 

I owned both D800e and A7R. My A7R is bricked now after firmware update - Sony customer service is very bad. I like the images from the D800e better than images from A7R when using same R lenses. Not sure if it's user error though. However I love my Sony RX100. 

[cirke]

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-currently-prototypeing-image-sensors-based-black-silicon/

[ECohen]

Then why do Sony sensors tend to function better in Nikon cameras than in their own offerings?

 

Sensors and their individual design....Leica, Nikon, Sony....all made by Sony?

One cameras better overall IQ than another..... To be clear isn't that what we are talking about?

 

I have a question:

 

There a lot of talk on this form about Leica's IQ ....Nikon/Canon IQ .....Sony.... etc. Dare I even bring up the Leia look.

In the digital age, on high end cameras..... can you really say that its sensors or lenses or firmware ?  I'm not an engineer and I'm only guessing....but:

 

 Can any of this be separated? Isn't IQ a delicate combination of parts, individual internal electronic design and firmware....even down to glass specs and the chemical formula's of the lenses coatings?

Its this combinations of choices ......individual choices  that makes up our camera final IQ.

 

Can you really separate the the sensor of one manufacture to the next and say that's the reason why Leica is better than ...Sony....etc.?

 

Like I said....I'm only guessing.......I look forward to your answer jaapv you always do you best to educate me and I appreciate that...and this forum

[jaapv]

IMO camera IQ is largely irrelevant. Present-day camera technology is of a level that one can make a good photograph with any camera. Differences in rendering by lenses have far more impact.

Don't forget that this forum, like any technical forum, has a high geek-content.

[BerndReini]

 

 

Exciting Sony Patent Describes Image Sensor with Per-Pixel Exposure-->  http://petapixel.com...pixel-exposure/

Oh great, built-in HDR look I assume.

[ECohen]

IMO camera IQ is largely irrelevant. Present-day camera technology is of a level that one can make a good photograph with any camera. Differences in rendering by lenses have far more impact.

Don't forget that this forum, like any technical forum, has a high geek-content.

 

"like any technical forum, has a high geek-content"

 

....I realize that....and I'm not a geek.... so I get confused on the forum....a lot.

to me IQ is how the file looks before I mess with it in Post?......like the negative before the darkroom

 

With film, every roll of say FP4 or EPP was the same camera to camera  so it was about the lens.

With today's electronic/digital cameras  its a different formula that makes a camera manufactures product  "special" ...in terms of IQ

Little things in the design choice or something little and electronic "changes" color, contrast, detail  etc etc.....how the file looks

...and then there is firmware...which is a gigantic variable...I would guess even the style in which its written alters the final look?

 

I love everything about the file and especially the mechanics and design of my Lecia ...... I love the look of the Leica DNG file

I honestly don't understand how one could separate the set? Lens /Sensor/Collection of parts/ Firmware

and say, this is the "part" that makes Leicas IQ better than Sony...etc.

...ok sometimes its a little contrastly....and that to me is a testable lens choice....I cant test the internal workings of  a part...can I?

 

I know ...I may not be a geek ......but like  all of you ....I think too much........it makes us  better photographers....I suffer from wonderment...and GAS

 

......I appreciate any comments on this subject....Honestly this forum ...as much as I learn ....I am always left wondering.

 

Thank You !!

[Wayne]

It is not so hard to accept Sony has assumed one of the front positions in photography/sensor world....and could lead the way- in quality and result- if they chose to do so. After all, Sony does now comprise everything Minolta as far as camera/lens knowledge. To me, you simply have to consider priorities when evaluating various companies. Consider what Sony might produce in the A7 line if they thought there was a market for an A7 camera that was twice the price of the A7R2. ........Or, if they decided there was a market for Sony lenses in a price range of 2 to 3 times the cost of what they currently produce.

[newnew]

 

Sensors and their individual design....Leica, Nikon, Sony....all made by Sony?

One cameras better overall IQ than another..... To be clear isn't that what we are talking about?

 

I have a question:

 

There a lot of talk on this form about Leica's IQ ....Nikon/Canon IQ .....Sony.... etc. Dare I even bring up the Leia look.

In the digital age, on high end cameras..... can you really say that its sensors or lenses or firmware ?  I'm not an engineer and I'm only guessing....but:

 

 Can any of this be separated? Isn't IQ a delicate combination of parts, individual internal electronic design and firmware....even down to glass specs and the chemical formula's of the lenses coatings?

Its this combinations of choices ......individual choices  that makes up our camera final IQ.

 

Can you really separate the the sensor of one manufacture to the next and say that's the reason why Leica is better than ...Sony....etc.?

 

Like I said....I'm only guessing.......I look forward to your answer jaapv you always do you best to educate me and I appreciate that...and this forum

 

In all of this you forget the guy who takes the picture. let's confess, the sensors capabilities are far beyond the ones from the photographers.. except for very very very special applications which do not deal with art but with science.

[jaapv]

"like any technical forum, has a high geek-content"

 

....I realize that....and I'm not a geek.... so I get confused on the forum....a lot.

to me IQ is how the file looks before I mess with it in Post?......like the negative before the darkroom

 

With film, every roll of say FP4 or EPP was the same camera to camera  so it was about the lens.

With today's electronic/digital cameras  its a different formula that makes a camera manufactures product  "special" ...in terms of IQ

Little things in the design choice or something little and electronic "changes" color, contrast, detail  etc etc.....how the file looks

...and then there is firmware...which is a gigantic variable...I would guess even the style in which its written alters the final look?

 

I love everything about the file and especially the mechanics and design of my Lecia ...... I love the look of the Leica DNG file

I honestly don't understand how one could separate the set? Lens /Sensor/Collection of parts/ Firmware

and say, this is the "part" that makes Leicas IQ better than Sony...etc.

...ok sometimes its a little contrastly....and that to me is a testable lens choice....I cant test the internal workings of  a part...can I?

 

I know ...I may not be a geek ......but like  all of you ....I think too much........it makes us  better photographers....I suffer from wonderment...and GAS

 

......I appreciate any comments on this subject....Honestly this forum ...as much as I learn ....I am always left wondering.

 

Thank You !!

Well, messing in post, the way theimage looks before you develop into a photograph through postprocessing is largely misleading. For instance a Monochrom image looks very flat before one creates the photograph, because the quality (in this case tonal range) is too high to be rendered in a meaningful manner. The same for the M240 -and other newer sensors. The out of camera rendering is far behind the inherent quality. Only postprocessing can bring it out.

 

And yes, the result comes from the whole chain, just like using film. Can one say that Tri-X looks better than Delta 400  or the otther way around? No, just different.  The same with sensors, only they are screwed in. Fortunately the differences between sensors are far smaller than the differences between films. and the possibilities to modify in lightroom more than those of the darkroom.

[ECohen]

Well, messing in post, the way theimage looks before you develop into a photograph through postprocessing is largely misleading. For instance a Monochrom image looks very flat before one creates the photograph, because the quality (in this case tonal range) is too high to be rendered in a meaningful manner. The same for the M240 -and other newer sensors. The out of camera rendering is far behind the inherent quality. Only postprocessing can bring it out.

 

And yes, the result comes from the whole chain, just like using film. Can one say that Tri-X looks better than Delta 400  or the otther way around? No, just different.  The same with sensors, only they are screwed in. Fortunately the differences between sensors are far smaller than the differences between films. and the possibilities to modify in lightroom more than those of the darkroom.

 

This is a very passionate camera forum

What forums do you all follow to up your Post game?

 45 years enjoying art and photography....and still learning everyday

 

Sorry to the OP for slightly changing direction of the post

[jaapv]

Books, (Martin Evening, Scott Kelby, Dan Margulis, Jeff Schewe and the rest), Internet tutorials - and mostly just doing it.

[Olsen]

Note that Japanese sensors only is available to companies in Japan.  Carl Zeiss has such a Japanese company and 'could' surprise the market with a M-competitor.  The reason for this is that the Japanese sensors are a result of a cooperation between Japanese private companies and Japanese state/taxpayers. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[BerndReini]

 

 

Carl Zeiss has such a Japanese company and 'could' surprise the market with a M-competitor. 

This is not going to happen. Rangefinder technology has been expensive and tricky to combine with digital technology. Leica has cornered and saturated that market and they have worked out quite a few kinks. If there ever was a time for a digital Zeiss Ikon, it has come and passed. EVF cameras like the Sonys are the competitors to the M system, and it has been good for the market.

[jaapv]

Note that Japanese sensors only is available to companies in Japan.  Carl Zeiss has such a Japanese company and 'could' surprise the market with a M-competitor.  The reason for this is that the Japanese sensors are a result of a cooperation between Japanese private companies and Japanese state/taxpayers. 

Now THAT is surprising, given that quite a few Leica models run on Sony sensors...