Neko Posted June 28, 2016 Author Share #41 Posted June 28, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Now THAT is surprising, given that quite a few Leica models run on Sony sensors... Maybe Panasonic is involved in those models... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 28, 2016 Posted June 28, 2016 Hi Neko, Take a look here Is Leica really behind Sony in sensor technology?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
zlatkob Posted June 28, 2016 Share #42 Posted June 28, 2016 Note that Japanese sensors only is available to companies in Japan. Carl Zeiss has such a Japanese company and 'could' surprise the market with a M-competitor. The reason for this is that the Japanese sensors are a result of a cooperation between Japanese private companies and Japanese state/taxpayers. Now THAT is surprising, given that quite a few Leica models run on Sony sensors... Sony sensors are in made-in-Sweden Hasselblad cameras too, including the H5D-50C and the just announced X1D. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted June 28, 2016 Share #43 Posted June 28, 2016 This is not going to happen. Rangefinder technology has been expensive and tricky to combine with digital technology. Leica has cornered and saturated that market and they have worked out quite a few kinks. If there ever was a time for a digital Zeiss Ikon, it has come and passed. EVF cameras like the Sonys are the competitors to the M system, and it has been good for the market. You're probably right, but I hope you're wrong. It seems to me there may be place for a digital Zeiss Ikon priced somewhere between Fuji's X-Pro2 ($1700) and Leica's M-262 ($6000). That's a big price gap. Leica's has saturated the $6K+ market, but not the $2K to $4K market. A digital Zeiss Ikon would appeal to those who want full frame (not offered by Fuji) and who want optical viewing (not offered by Sony) and who can't afford or don't want to pay Leica prices. I'm presuming (guessing) Cosina or someone could build it for Zeiss at a lower cost than the digital Leica M. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 29, 2016 Share #44 Posted June 29, 2016 Maybe Panasonic is involved in those models... No - Panasonic is involved in the Q and SL. Sony is for instance in the X series and I think the T as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted June 30, 2016 Share #45 Posted June 30, 2016 Leica's has saturated the $6K+ market, but not the $2K to $4K market. A digital Zeiss Ikon would appeal to those who want full frame (not offered by Fuji) and who want optical viewing (not offered by Sony) and who can't afford or don't want to pay Leica prices. I'm presuming (guessing) Cosina or someone could build it for Zeiss at a lower cost than the digital Leica M. I think that gap is covered by used Leicas. If Zeiss ever had the intention of making a rangefinder, why wouldn't they have done it a long time ago, maybe even beating Leica in the race for the first full-frame rangefinder. Zeiss are making good money designing lenses for all the different camera makers and systems, I just don't see it happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 30, 2016 Share #46 Posted June 30, 2016 Zeiss has said some time ago that they were not able to build a digital rangefinder at a price that would be competitive to Leica. For one thing Leica is sure to hold some crucial patents that Zeiss would need to engineer around. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted June 30, 2016 Share #47 Posted June 30, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) But Zeiss could make a body based on Sony A7 and built like a Zeiss (without RF of course , it will be a nonsense today) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 30, 2016 Share #48 Posted June 30, 2016 Sure they could - Hasselblad tried something like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 30, 2016 Share #49 Posted June 30, 2016 While not 35mm, Linhof made an electronic rangefinder for their 4x5 Technika, then withdrew it because of problems and, I think, reimbursed customers. But that was early in tech time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neko Posted July 2, 2016 Author Share #50 Posted July 2, 2016 No - Panasonic is involved in the Q and SL. Sony is for instance in the X series and I think the T as well. Thanks for the correction Jaapv. With all these companies manufacturing under license, is a bit confusing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tailwagger Posted July 2, 2016 Share #51 Posted July 2, 2016 Sony is for instance in the X series and I think the T as well. True. Of course there is the long standing hope among Fujista's that the collaboration wth Panasonic will yield an organic sensor in the not too distant future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 3, 2016 Share #52 Posted July 3, 2016 Zeiss quote regarding digital rangefinders from 5-6 years back (about the time of the M9 intro) - "Zeiss is not persuaded there is a sustainable market for one digital rangefinder camera, let alone two." Zeiss has not made cameras since the 1960s. They are a lens company. They contracted with Cosina to build the ZI bodies, as well as some (eventually all) of the ZM lenses. Cosina has no direct digital camera experience or interest either - they provided the "non-digital" camera skeleton (frame, shutter, lens mount, RF) to Epson for the Epson RD-1 - Epson did all the "digital" work behind the shutter (except the Sony sensor). Both the Zeiss Ikon and RD-1 cameras are now roadkill. As is every other attempt at a Leica M competitor since 1970 - Konica Hexar, Contax G, C/V Bessas. If you are Leica, making a rangefinder camera keeps you alive (a strong incentive) - if you are anyone else, making an RF camera is a quick route to the graveyard (a strong disincentive). It's like the old joke about the airline business: "How do you become a millionaire making digital rangefinders? Start out as a billionaire!" BTW - Cosina has ceased all camera production, AFAIK, except perhaps for the "Nikon FM10." Digital RFs, above and beyond the specialized viewing system (which Cosina was able to source fairly cheaply, for their own products, and for the ZI) need specialized sensor design (offset microlenses, etc.) to handle the short back-focus of legacy and/or compact lenses You cannot just shove in an inexpensive (more or less) off-the shelf sensor, as users of M wides on the Sony Alpha 7 found out. You have to find a designer and maker to build a "bespoke" sensor - and then find out the price per, when your order will be, say, 10,000 over three years, instead of Sony's 200,000 (or 1,000,000) a year. And then find someone to design and build and program the processor and other "stuff" that backs up the sensor. Hoping Zeiss will get involved in their own digital RF is like hoping Daimler will jump into the airliner market against Boeing and Airbus, or that Kodak will introduce a breakfast cereal. It's not their area of expertise, its a thin market with no economies of scale to exploit, there's not a lot of room for "disruptive technology" because the market is people who like the 60-year-old technology, and there's a 600-lb gorilla that already fills the room. If you want a cheap Leica digital RF competitor in the $2-4K range, such already exists, as it has for the past 50 years: a used Leica. I just snapped up an M Monochrom v.1 for $3650. (5400 actuations). What is Zeiss or anyone else going to offer me for that price? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 3, 2016 Share #53 Posted July 3, 2016 True. Of course there is the long standing hope among Fujista's that the collaboration wth Panasonic will yield an organic sensor in the not too distant future. Somehow there is a dissonance between"long standing hope" and "not too distant future" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 3, 2016 Share #54 Posted July 3, 2016 [...] If you want a cheap Leica digital RF competitor in the $2-4K range, such already exists, as it has for the past 50 years: a used Leica. I just snapped up an M Monochrom v.1 for $3650. (5400 actuations). What is Zeiss or anyone else going to offer me for that price? One R-D2 with Kolari Vision's sensor stack and a couple CV lenses? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted July 3, 2016 Share #55 Posted July 3, 2016 Andy, you have convinced me with that last post. That is persuasive. I have abandoned all hope now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 3, 2016 Share #56 Posted July 3, 2016 lct - What R-D2? Built by whom? (Not Cosina - they have shut down their camera factory; lenses only from now on). Make me a business case that, given the choice of: 1) developing and building and marketing an "R-D2" or 2) making a pile out of 100 million yen - and setting fire to it - that option 2 is not the better choice, in terms of maximizing a company's profits. ________ BTW - I should have included the Minolta CL/CLE in the list of would-be M-mount competitors since 1970. Also long gone, despite Minolta's cooperative relationship with Leitz. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted July 3, 2016 Share #57 Posted July 3, 2016 I was not clear sorry. I referred to erick's question above. Just a mirrorless camera like the A7 with M mount and thin sensor stack. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 3, 2016 Share #58 Posted July 3, 2016 lct - What R-D2? Built by whom? (Not Cosina - they have shut down their camera factory; lenses only from now on). Make me a business case that, given the choice of: 1) developing and building and marketing an "R-D2" or 2) making a pile out of 100 million yen - and setting fire to it - that option 2 is not the better choice, in terms of maximizing a company's profits. ________ BTW - I should have included the Minolta CL/CLE in the list of would-be M-mount competitors since 1970. Also long gone, despite Minolta's cooperative relationship with Leitz. The RD1 was a smart move. It allowed Cosina to make money out of their stockpile of Bessa parts, which would have been worthless otherwise. Presumably the same goes for the Nikon part of the camera - that was technology where the R&D had long been written off. After that - your scenario reigned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 3, 2016 Share #59 Posted July 3, 2016 Zeiss quote regarding digital rangefinders from 5-6 years back (about the time of the M9 intro) - "Zeiss is not persuaded there is a sustainable market for one digital rangefinder camera, let alone two." Zeiss has not made cameras since the 1960s. They are a lens company. They contracted with Cosina to build the ZI bodies, as well as some (eventually all) of the ZM lenses. Cosina has no direct digital camera experience or interest either - they provided the "non-digital" camera skeleton (frame, shutter, lens mount, RF) to Epson for the Epson RD-1 - Epson did all the "digital" work behind the shutter (except the Sony sensor). Both the Zeiss Ikon and RD-1 cameras are now roadkill. As is every other attempt at a Leica M competitor since 1970 - Konica Hexar, Contax G, C/V Bessas. If you are Leica, making a rangefinder camera keeps you alive (a strong incentive) - if you are anyone else, making an RF camera is a quick route to the graveyard (a strong disincentive). It's like the old joke about the airline business: "How do you become a millionaire making digital rangefinders? Start out as a billionaire!" BTW - Cosina has ceased all camera production, AFAIK, except perhaps for the "Nikon FM10." Digital RFs, above and beyond the specialized viewing system (which Cosina was able to source fairly cheaply, for their own products, and for the ZI) need specialized sensor design (offset microlenses, etc.) to handle the short back-focus of legacy and/or compact lenses You cannot just shove in an inexpensive (more or less) off-the shelf sensor, as users of M wides on the Sony Alpha 7 found out. You have to find a designer and maker to build a "bespoke" sensor - and then find out the price per, when your order will be, say, 10,000 over three years, instead of Sony's 200,000 (or 1,000,000) a year. And then find someone to design and build and program the processor and other "stuff" that backs up the sensor. Hoping Zeiss will get involved in their own digital RF is like hoping Daimler will jump into the airliner market against Boeing and Airbus, or that Kodak will introduce a breakfast cereal. It's not their area of expertise, its a thin market with no economies of scale to exploit, there's not a lot of room for "disruptive technology" because the market is people who like the 60-year-old technology, and there's a 600-lb gorilla that already fills the room. If you want a cheap Leica digital RF competitor in the $2-4K range, such already exists, as it has for the past 50 years: a used Leica. I just snapped up an M Monochrom v.1 for $3650. (5400 actuations). What is Zeiss or anyone else going to offer me for that price? Funny you should mention Daimler. That is exactly what they did when they acquired Fokker through their aerospace division DASA - now sold. It lasted but a few years before the whole project collapsed and cost Daimler billions - and 8000 people their jobs, not counting suppliers etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonkerdog Posted July 4, 2016 Share #60 Posted July 4, 2016 I buy Bang and Olufsen televisions, that have their panels made for them by Samsung. The picture, and of course sound are way better in the real world than any Samsung of its era. I fly Boeings for a living, and I struggle to name any part that is actually made by them. But it's still a Boeing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.