Martin Fagerås Posted May 20, 2016 Share #41 Posted May 20, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I own both the Q and M240. even though they look somewhat similar, this is two completely different cameras. The Q is a versatile modern AF camera with the "Leica look" in its output and the M is a manual, wonderful and somewhat slow process camera with a learning curve (mostly in manual focus speed). The Q: This is the camera i would slap a SF40 flash on and shoot a birthday party with, the AF is supernice for fast paced situations, the M can be cumbersome in those. It's also the camera i tend to use for low-light shooting, It is about two stops better in terms of ISO noise than the M240 because of the more modern sensor and processor. Even though i tend to travel with both cameras, the Q is a very very capable travel companion, It's light weight, inconspicuous (with a black dot) and silent, the macro mode is also handy. In other words it's very multidisciplinary. I tend to choose between the Q and M depending on mood mostly, the Q if i need AF, Low-Light or macro, the M if i want that process + different focal lengths. The IQ in normal light is equal in my eyes. Also worth to mention it's a 28 Summilux with an attached camera thats perfectly calibrated for less money than a 28 Summilux-M Regarding 35mm vs 28mm that is not a show-stopper for the Q in my opinion. I'm also a 35mm kind of guy, but the 28 is no problem to adjust to, the 35 crop mode on the Q is also nice, and the 16mp file it makes is enough for most situations. The M: First of all. you HAVE to test a M over a couple of days before committing to buy. The rangefinder manual focus experience is unique, and perhaps it's not for you at all. I personally love it to bits. I had a M a week over easter from a dealer with a test-drive campaign before deciding. Forget buying an M for the looks, yes it's a gorgeous camera, but if the way of shooting wont work for you, it will be an expensive shoulder-man-jewelry, You will then probably be much happier with the Q (or an Sony A7 camera for that matter). Remember that technologically the M 240/MP-240/MD/262 is now a bit old. I personally have no problem with the 24MP CMOS, but you should note that the A7 series (the only other comparable compact fullframe interchangeable system) has much better tech-specs. It's a very very different shooting experience. I personally don't like the sony's though, they are way to "button computerish" for me. All in all, they are comparable, but also not comparable. You buy an M for the way it works, and you have to love that way, If not, get something else. The M will just be an expensive experiment of grief. hehe. The Q is a modern Leica. Its the fixed version of the SL, Like the RX1II is to the A7RII from sony. The M is still an M, its unique Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 20, 2016 Posted May 20, 2016 Hi Martin Fagerås, Take a look here M(240), M9P or Q?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JBond Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share #42 Posted May 22, 2016 It sounds to me that it would be best if I started with a Leica Q and then in the future add on to it an M. However, i am a bit puzzled because the Q seems to have gone up in price from £2900 to £3230?? Is this retailers being greedy or Leica has decided to milk it now? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 22, 2016 Share #43 Posted May 22, 2016 The Euro price is still 4060, which is GBP 3125. The pound has been dropping quite a bit against the Euro the last six months, it might be an exchange rate correction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share #44 Posted May 22, 2016 The M prices haven't changed in the UK as far as I am aware. They have remained the same. Likewise with the X series. It looks like Leica has noticed the popularity of the Q and is trying to milk it as much as they can. Did not expect such below the belt move from a company like Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 22, 2016 Share #45 Posted May 22, 2016 Leica prices change every 6 months at least. They are too small a company to absorb exchange moves or materials or labour increases so often move their prices up, sometimes down. The M240 and M-P went down in the UK in the last price change but the Q went up. However what dealers charge may be different. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 22, 2016 Share #46 Posted May 22, 2016 The M prices haven't changed in the UK as far as I am aware. They have remained the same. Likewise with the X series. It looks like Leica has noticed the popularity of the Q and is trying to milk it as much as they can. Did not expect such below the belt move from a company like Leica. Business is business and the price is what the price is (ie what the market will bear). Calling it a 'below the belt move' is irrelevant because Leica, like any other business, makes decisions based on business justifications. Shareholders expect the company to maximise profit because that's why it's in business; if raising the price turns potential customers such as yourself away then presumably there is a sound business reason for doing it, perhaps for example, to control demand in the short term (I have no personal knowledge, just conjecturing). Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share #47 Posted May 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Leica prices change every 6 months at least. They are too small a company to absorb exchange moves or materials or labour increases so often move their prices up, sometimes down. The M240 and M-P went down in the UK in the last price change but the Q went up. However what dealers charge may be different. That's exactly what makes no sense. If the exchange rate fluctuations have caused the price of M to go down then the price of the Q should have stayed the same or gone down too. The dealers are all charging the same price (£3230) so it is not them who have infalted prices. Business is business and the price is what the price is (ie what the market will bear). Calling it a 'below the belt move' is irrelevant because Leica, like any other business, makes decisions based on business justifications. Shareholders expect the company to maximise profit because that's why it's in business; if raising the price turns potential customers such as yourself away then presumably there is a sound business reason for doing it, perhaps for example, to control demand in the short term (I have no personal knowledge, just conjecturing). Pete. I agree that business aims to maximise profits but there is such a thing as business ethics. I have never come accross a company that increasses prices the more products it sells. Generally the more a product sells the lower its price goes. If Leica still hasn't managed to satisfy demand for the Q a year after it was releassed and they resort to price increasses to control demand then the company needs to sort out its business strategies. Generally a company that aims to increase profits does so by increassing production to meet demand. Increassing price to control demand (if that is the case) is a suicidal strategy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted May 22, 2016 Share #48 Posted May 22, 2016 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/260447-m240-m9p-or-q/?do=findComment&comment=3049200'>More sharing options...
Paulus Posted May 22, 2016 Share #49 Posted May 22, 2016 Hi all. I'm looking to buy a Leica and was looking for a bit of advice on what to get. Budget is around £3k- £4k which means second hand for the Ms which I am fine with. (probably would start with a 35mm lens). From what I have read so far the 3 main contenders to consider are Q, M(240) and M9P. Photography subjects include general family holidays, architecture, scenery. No fast paced sports. I quite like black and white now and again. What are the main benefits/drawbacks and distinguishing features for each please and which one to go for? I would buy a used M240 a used 50mm and step into the learning curve. It will be a great experience and you will enjoy making photos of everyday situations very much. Just have to have the courage to begin. If you fail... you can sell the used stuff for almost the same price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 22, 2016 Share #50 Posted May 22, 2016 ... Increassing price to control demand (if that is the case) is a suicidal strategy. Okay I don't wish to turn this into a discussion about economics but to answer your response, it's not suicidal if it's properly managed. Higher prices will probably lead to fewer sales but units cost more so in an ideal world the figures balance and income stays the same. Of course the world is rarely ideal so subsequent price adjustments may be necessary to encourage or discourage sales as needed. The point to note here is that you can't sell units that you haven't manufactured. Yes, you can take orders for units that you haven't manufactured and perhaps charge a small percentage of the purchase price to secure the order but it's not common to be able to charge full purchase price on a promise. Controlling demand through increasing price is not suicidal if you have a finite supply; decreasing price or maintaining price when demand well outstrips supply can be suicidal because of the reputational risk and risk of litigation for non-supply. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoothlander Posted May 22, 2016 Share #51 Posted May 22, 2016 I know I'm kind of late to this post, but that's not gonna stop me..... I am a Canon guy and a serious sports shooter. Last summer went on vacation with the family to London and lugged my 5d along with a smallish 24-70mm lenses. Hardly ever took the damn thing out of my bag. Too heavy, family too impatient, etc. Got home and started searching for a walkaround family vacation camera. Bought the Q in January, took it on vacation (a brief winter getaway....I do have to work) and fell in love with Leica, the camera and it's images. I joined this forum and started lurking around and got interested in a M240. I pulled the trigger several months ago (50mm cron lens) and really....all my pictures sucked! Just couldn't get the focus nailed. Sooo, I practiced and practiced and practiced more. I now can pretty quickly nail sharp focus and as I got better, I was able to get more flexible on the aperture to take advantage of my lens in low light. My recommendation is, if you're willing to practice your focusing skills, get the M240. If not, get the Q, you won't be disappointed with the 28mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted May 22, 2016 Share #52 Posted May 22, 2016 I have noticed over the year that Leica prices on most items constantly creep up. It's the nature of the game. Only items with low sales and high stock or items at the end of their life span go down. Only once I saw general reduction against GBP when the euro really fell. Leica don't emulate other manufacturers who reduce their prices constantly from introduction. Interestingly the only other company that mostly sticks to prices is Sony. I am very impressed that the A7ii range sticks to its prices (AR7Rii still £2,599). I guess Sony would rather sell less then discount to compress margins long term. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted May 22, 2016 Share #53 Posted May 22, 2016 The M prices haven't changed in the UK as far as I am aware. They have remained the same. Likewise with the X series. It looks like Leica has noticed the popularity of the Q and is trying to milk it as much as they can. Did not expect such below the belt move from a company like Leica. Over here, I haven't seen any change in the price of the Q from the major retailers. If it is going up where you are, probably due to exchange rates or greedy dealers. Not due to Leica, I suspect. It is still a hard to get camera here. And Leica is a small company, so production is likely to stay limited. Look, just buy a Q or an M and see what you think. If it's out of your comfort zone for price buying new, there is the used market. You have gotten some good suggestions here, but getting down to complaining about the price ..... Or complaining about Leica without owning one....... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share #54 Posted May 22, 2016 Okay I don't wish to turn this into a discussion about economics but to answer your response, it's not suicidal if it's properly managed. Higher prices will probably lead to fewer sales but units cost more so in an ideal world the figures balance and income stays the same. Of course the world is rarely ideal so subsequent price adjustments may be necessary to encourage or discourage sales as needed. The point to note here is that you can't sell units that you haven't manufactured. Yes, you can take orders for units that you haven't manufactured and perhaps charge a small percentage of the purchase price to secure the order but it's not common to be able to charge full purchase price on a promise. Controlling demand through increasing price is not suicidal if you have a finite supply; decreasing price or maintaining price when demand well outstrips supply can be suicidal because of the reputational risk and risk of litigation for non-supply. Pete. Or Leica could increase production. If there is a huge demand for Q and there is plenty of stock for M then Leica could very easily increase production of Q and lower that of M. However our ideas and speculations are simply that and I doubt Leica could care less for them. As a customer I can only show my approval or disproval through the only power I have: buying the product or not. To me the price rise of the Q does not sound right. As such I have decided to wait until either the price of the Q goes down or I get a second hand one. I will not pay more than £2900 for a new Q purely on principle. Photography is a hobby for me and as such I have the luxury to wait for a year or two before purchasing a camera I want. As for the M it is very tempting however currently I do not have sufficient time to dedicate to practicing with it and as such I can't justify throwing £4k+ to an used M (including lens). I sold my Nikon because I was no longer interested in it and I will stick to the iPhone 6 whilst waiting for the right moment to buy a Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted May 22, 2016 Author Share #55 Posted May 22, 2016 Over here, I haven't seen any change in the price of the Q from the major retailers. If it is going up where you are, probably due to exchange rates or greedy dealers. Not due to Leica, I suspect. It is still a hard to get camera here. And Leica is a small company, so production is likely to stay limited. Look, just buy a Q or an M and see what you think. If it's out of your comfort zone for price buying new, there is the used market. You have gotten some good suggestions here, but getting down to complaining about the price ..... Or complaining about Leica without owning one....... Definitely nothing to do with the retailers in view of the fact that all of them are selling at the same price. Would have been happy to buy a Q at its original price but that is no longer the same. As for an M I would never buy a brand new one at £5k. Not because I can't afford it but because I could never justify spending that much money on a camera used as a light hobby (especially one that is far from perfection and that will depreciate rather fast). I really appreciate all the suggestions everyone has kindly given here and they have certainly helped me in my decision making in the post above Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted May 23, 2016 Share #56 Posted May 23, 2016 Definitely nothing to do with the retailers in view of the fact that all of them are selling at the same price. Would have been happy to buy a Q at its original price but that is no longer the same. As for an M I would never buy a brand new one at £5k. Not because I can't afford it but because I could never justify spending that much money on a camera used as a light hobby (especially one that is far from perfection and that will depreciate rather fast). I really appreciate all the suggestions everyone has kindly given here and they have certainly helped me in my decision making in the post above As I suggested earlier, a Leica T may suit you. The Q has never been marketed as affordable, and neither has the M. If not in your budget, then a lot of us have spent our time spinning our wheels on this subject. I don't think you were seriously considering if the price now turns you off. Good luck finding one second hand. That may be a rare thing for awhile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBond Posted May 23, 2016 Author Share #57 Posted May 23, 2016 As I suggested earlier, a Leica T may suit you. The Q has never been marketed as affordable, and neither has the M. If not in your budget, then a lot of us have spent our time spinning our wheels on this subject. I don't think you were seriously considering if the price now turns you off. Good luck finding one second hand. That may be a rare thing for awhile. I think you've misunderstood me. My budget is £3000 - £4000. I certainly can afford the Q or used M however I have decided to wait for a while before purchasing because i don't agree with the price increase of the Q on principle. As i mentioned I have the luxury of time, so I can wait before I make a purchase. I'm not desperate to own a Leica. No one here has been 'spinning their wheels' I can assure you. All the replies have been very helpful and I am grateful. They have truly helped me with my decision to go for a Q. However that does not mean that I have to go and buy one now. PS: Leica T is not for me I'm afraid. It doesnt attract me as a product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 23, 2016 Share #58 Posted May 23, 2016 On price increases: To avoid having to adjust prices up and down constantly manufacturers hedge their exchange rate for a certain period of time. Once the period is over, they will adjust the price against the new period. This does not have to be the same date as another model.If you want to avoid this effect you need to look at the price in Euros. I strongly suspect that this has been the case with the Q in the UK. UK buyers probably can look forward to price rises on many products from the Eurozone if the Pound continues its present trend. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belle123 Posted May 23, 2016 Share #59 Posted May 23, 2016 I think you've misunderstood me. My budget is £3000 - £4000. I certainly can afford the Q or used M however I have decided to wait for a while before purchasing because i don't agree with the price increase of the Q on principle. As i mentioned I have the luxury of time, so I can wait before I make a purchase. I'm not desperate to own a Leica. No one here has been 'spinning their wheels' I can assure you. All the replies have been very helpful and I am grateful. They have truly helped me with my decision to go for a Q. However that does not mean that I have to go and buy one now. PS: Leica T is not for me I'm afraid. It doesnt attract me as a product. The price increase, as many have said, has probably to do with the exchange rate in your country. It's not the fault of Leica doing you some dirty deed that deserves your reprimand. The fact that the price has not gone up in the States yet, says it is an exchange rate issue. That being said, the price will likely only increase in the future. You may have a long wait. When you get a Leica, feel free to come up here with more questions. Good luck! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted May 23, 2016 Share #60 Posted May 23, 2016 Actually, feel free to come here with questions whether you have a Leica or not. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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