Help with Contax 645 lenses

[tthorne]

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Hi everyone, I know there are some folks here like Jip and others who have a good deal of experience with Contax 645 Lenses on the S, so I am wondering if I can get opinions on whether my experience is all in my head or if it coincides with what others have experienced using these lenses. 

 

First off, but in my opinion, both the Contax and the Leica lenses are optically fantastic, however, from what I have seen, the Leica lenses are noticeably superior on this department. Still, I find the Contax lineup plenty great, so this inquiry really isn't about that. 

 

So a close friend of mine brought a bag over to my house with EVERY Contax 645 lens (and tele-converter) made. All in mint condition. He even picked up a Leica/Contax adapter for me and told me to have a blast with these on my 007 to see how I liked them. He still has his 645, but is thinking of selling it, and wanted to give me time to see if I wanted any/all the lenses. Needless to say, this is a really great friend!

 

Currently my S setup consists of the S-24mm and the S-70mm. I use the 24mm a lot for work, so it is essential and it doesn't have an equivalent focal length wise in the Contax world. So that lens is a must. Now, when I compare my S-70mm to the 80/2, or the 140/2.8, or the 45/2.8, I notice that the Contax lenses focus much faster, more sure, and more accurately. My S-70mm jerks focus back and forth as it hunts and many times is cause for missing a fleeting moment. Also, it is simply off a great deal of the time, mostly back focussing by just a tad. I will say this though, when it is on, it is really on, and RAZOR sharp. I have noticed this same behavior testing the S-100mm and the S-120mm.

 

Anyhow, the difference in sharpness, while noticeable, is somewhat inconsequential to me, but the ability to get focus reliably and quickly is of consequence to me. The S is the only AF camera that I own (I have the SL but I use it with the Leica 28mm PC lens) so I would like to use the AF with some ease. I don't expect it to be like a Canon or Nikon DSLR though. 

 

So my question is if others have the same experience/findings that I have, or could there be something wrong with the lenses I have tested including my own 70mm? My dilemma is this. My ideal setup (leaving out a 30mm T/S lens that I dream of Leica making) would be the S-24mm, maybe a 35mm, a 45mm, a 70/80mm, and a moderate tele, like 100/120/140mm. Being a somewhat hardcore Leica fan, I tend to try to keep it all in the family, and I was just getting ready to purchase an S-100mm followed by a S-45mm sometime after. However, I feel like Leica may do something in the future to improve the performance on these lenses and I wonder if I should just stick to my 24mm and use Contax lenses from there on. 

 

I would love to hear any and all opinions. 

 

 

[Guest chipcarterdc]

I have a Leica 007 with Leica 30-90, 70mm, 100mm, and 180mm lenses, and Contax 645 80mm, 140mm, and 210mm lenses (and adapter).  I've had no problems with speed and accuracy of any of my Leica lenses, including the 70mm.  I've also had no problems with or complaints about the Contax lenses.

 

If the question you're asking is basically whether other users are experiencing the Contax lenses focusing more quickly and more accurately than the Leica lenses, my own experience is no.  The Contax lenses do indeed focus accurately on my 007 body, and actually focus slightly faster on the Leica S body with adapter than on the native Contax 645 body in my experience (I still have my Contax body).  But the Contax lenses are not "faster than" or "more accurate than" the Leica lenses in my experience.  More specifically: head to head, my Leica 70mm focuses noticeably faster than, and locks focus slightly more accurately than, my Contax 80mm.  This is true both in bright daylight and in indoor conditions. (I took a break from typing this to pick up the camera and do a back to back comparison with these two lenses to confirm that my recollection was accurate in this regard.  It is.)

 

Note the "slightly more accurately" phrase with regard to focus lock is intended to signal the following: In bright daylight, the Leica 70mm is still both faster and more accurate at locking focus than the Contax 80mm, but with regard to accuracy, it's a close call.  That is, in bright daylight, the Contax is slower to focus, but just about the same in focus accuracy once focus is achieved.

 

For your consideration: Two images from the same recent shoot.  The first was shot with the Leica 70mm wide open (f2.5), 1/250th, at ISO 1600.  Main light source was window light, with a bit of flash for a kicker from camera left. (The model was standing in front of a window with a sheer curtain, so most of the light is coming from directly behind her.  I cranked up the exposure compensation to blow out the curtain and provide better exposure on the model, provided further frontal illumination on her with the kick flash, and further blew out the curtain in post in photoshop.  The easier way to do this would have been a simple reflector to camera left, but I forgot my reflector at home that day.)

 

The second with the Contax 80mm wide open (at f2.0), 1/500th, ISO 400.  Illumination was window light only.

 

Both images have obviously had significant post-processing, so ignore everything but focus for purposes of your question.  In both scenarios, focus was on the near eye.  I selected these two images because both were similar with regard to the focusing challenges presented: Both were taken indoors, in lighting that was quite a bit dimmer than it appears from the resultant photos; both were scenarios with strong backlighting or side lighting; both were shot at the lenses' maximum aperture; and both were aimed at achieving focus on a precise and relatively small area of the frame (the eye).  While shooting these sets, focus was faster and more accurate with the Leica 70mm than the Contax 80mm.  The Contax was no slouch, though: focus speed was fine, and although it hunted a bit more than the Leica, focus accuracy was quite good once locked on.

 

Note: Although the second image was at a faster shutter speed than the first, the second shows a bit of camera shake  when I zoom all the way in on the original file because no flash was used in that image.

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[ynp]

I don't have a 007, I own the S2-P. I have the S24 (manual lens now, no AF), 39-90mm zoom, s100, S180cs and all the Contax 645 lenses with the exception of the 350mm. I also have some Hasselblad HC lenses.

 

In my experience, the faster focusing lenses, from the press of the button to the final fix on the target , are :

1. s100,

1. C55,

3.C45

4. s180

6. S Zoom

7. C140

8. My C80 and C210 hunt for focus annoyingly long, maybe they are faulty and I am in a search for newer lenses.

My Contax Zoom and C35 are on a loan to my daughter and I have limited access to them. Her C80 is very recent and physically better then mine, I shot it once and did not notice any difference with my Planar.

I also noticed that the Contax lenses focused better and faster on my Leica than on the C645.

[hoppyman]

I don't understand what you are describing comparing auto focus of that Contax (80 mm?) lens and the standard Summarit 70 lens on the same body. Of course the camera is measuring for the same sharpest adjustment with any lens fitted. The lenses have no focus brains of their own!  With identical conditions, technique and settings you are reporting that the 70 hunts and mis focuses while that 80 is both faster and always accurate? Do you attribute that to the operation of the AF Motor or the adjustment in the Summarit being inferirior? I have absolutely no experience with any Contax lens of that type. I just don't understand what you are experiencing with the Summarit. I have shot maybe 16000 exposures on S2 and S (Typ 007) with my 70 and I might have had the lens hunt to focus on an eye in full length in studio ambient light maybe once in a hundred (at a guess!)

[mwilliamsphotography]

Your experiences do seem anecdotal.  Perhaps based on varying situations rather than controlled tests? Different targets, different levels of contrast. etc could make for a confusing comparison.

 

I used the Contax 645 system for many years, and found the AF less than snappy or all that reliably accurate … however, it was quite old tech compared to now. When Kyocera bailed on the system it ended any dream of an improved AF system update in the camera body. 

 

I then moved to the Hasselblad H system and found the AF to be much better (faster/accurate) manifested in lower light mostly … and they have continued improving it over the years. As of the H4D I felt it was the best available in MFD … not 35mm fast, but quite accurate due to True Focus (automatic minor focus adjustment to compensate for any focus shift when altering aperture per each focal length, and APL Absolute Position Lock for off-center focus, re-position).

 

When my work needs altered, I then began transitioning to the Leica S system using The Hasselblad HC and HCD lenses I already owned while waiting for Leica to flesh out their S lens line up.

 

Like with any lens system, some focal lengths were/are faster with less hunting. I found the HC120/4 no slower or faster than the S120/2.5 (both are problematic). Both have to move a lot of glass further than normal focal lengths. In lower contrast situations the S system is better than the Contax 645 was, but not a giant leap forward.

 

To be clear, I no longer have Contax 645 lenses, so I've never used them on the S. I suspect that in similar situations they are no faster/accurate than the S lenses … and given that the firmware updates for the S lenses have improved the accuracy, I suspect they may also be faster … but we are probably talking hair splitting differences.

 

Personally, when I experience any hint of hunting, I immediately go to manual focusing and then tweak with AF. Or I AF and tweak with manual focus. That big bright S viewfinder helps.

 

BTW, Using the HC100/2.2 on both the Hasselblad H4 camera and the S2 and S(006) via the H to S adapter, the Hasselblad viewfinder was visably brighter.

 

- Marc 

[tthorne]

Based on what I have read here thus far, I am inclined to believe that my issues have more to do with my own techniques working with the camera. I went back and looked at some shots along with my notes and I realize that I am actually being inaccurate in my comparisons. I am really not using the 80/2 much at all, particularly because I prefer the image quality of the S70. Where I am noticing the real difference in focussing is between the S70 and the 140/2.8, which may or may not be a good comparison. 

 

I started thinking back to my first time using a camera with Contrast Detection AF vs my old DSLRs which used Phase Detect, and how Contrast Detection got much easier once I had a better idea of how it worked and how to best use the camera. Truth be told, I have not used AF in some years and so this may be a pretty good reason why I might be handling the camera incorrectly. Even for my work where I use the S24 a lot, I am manually focussing on a tripod pinched in on the subject using live view, so the times when I am using AF are so few that I can see myself needing more practice. 

 

I do, however get a lot of hunting going on with my S70, and some clear misses/back focussing. But then there are times when I do nail it, so I am still inclined to believe that I am doing something wrong. I also had the same intermittent issue with the S100 when I borrowed it, so that leads me to believe it is user error as well.

 

I have the split prism focussing screen installed, however I have yet to really get in tune working with that. When the lines are clear though, it is pretty easy to manually focus. I have yet to try adjusting focus manually simply by eyeballing it in the viewfinder. Seeing as how it is a really huge and brilliant viewfinder, do any of you actually do that? 

 

Any tips or advice anyone has is greatly appreciated. This is just me trying to get better with the S and use it for more than just my work, where I do everything manually anyway. Thanks guys. 

[Dougg]

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There could be a focus issue with the lens, maybe something like I've had. Shortly after I got a new 100 Summicron I took it on vacation using it exclusively... at first. Over about a week the focus got slower and more difficult, the motor sounding labored. And indeed manual focus was stiff too. Often the lens would start to focus and give up without achieving sharp focus, then I would bring it on-track manually. It got so bad I gave up using the lens (concerned about straining the focus motor) and switched to the 35 Summarit which behaved perfectly. I'll note that this 35 had gone to Germany with a diaphragm problem shortly after I got it, so it had been serviced. So after the trip the 100 took a trip to Germany too and now it's fine. But the 70 is starting to feel a little gummy in the focus department... My sense is that a session of intensive use causes it to bog down a little. Sound familiar?

[ZHNL]

The S007 and 70mm I have also had similar problem as you listed. I posted that info in focus error thread. It basically will hunt and happen more at low light and AF-C. I actually slightly prefer S2/S006 here. S007 seems focus much faster, but what it does most of time is back and forth faster. (Nikon D810 is 10 years better here.)

 

You might have known that put camera in manual mode and use back button to active AF. This will isolate shutter from focusing. since the lens and body combo hunt, if not doing so, you almost can't get the shot in focus in timely manner. put it in manual, you can active focus by a simple quick push the button to let camera set the initial focus, (don't keep pushing it, especially difficult light condition, it will hunt forever) either fire right way or fire at the same time manual focus and continue fire and focusing(manual), S007 is much faster than S006 in this regard. (this is the tech I use for time sensitive case that the occasion you need get the moment fast)

 

For close range shooting WO, I almost never AF, and feel the S AF implementation(huge center spot) is useless at that case.  

 

Contax lenses on S behave differently, they are slower focusing and they won't hunt as much simply because they are way slower.  so, you simply can or can't get the shot, not much hunting, I have 45 and 140, to be honest, I am a little disappointed with Contax lens performance.  Most of good modern 35mm fast glass will kill them in performance,  speed and rendering. 80mm should be nice on rendering department, but only on real 645 format. 

[hoppyman]

There could be a focus issue with the lens, maybe something like I've had. Shortly after I got a new 100 Summicron I took it on vacation using it exclusively... at first. Over about a week the focus got slower and more difficult, the motor sounding labored. And indeed manual focus was stiff too. Often the lens would start to focus and give up without achieving sharp focus, then I would bring it on-track manually. It got so bad I gave up using the lens (concerned about straining the focus motor) and switched to the 35 Summarit which behaved perfectly. I'll note that this 35 had gone to Germany with a diaphragm problem shortly after I got it, so it had been serviced. So after the trip the 100 took a trip to Germany too and now it's fine. But the 70 is starting to feel a little gummy in the focus department... My sense is that a session of intensive use causes it to bog down a little. Sound familiar?

Not familiar here Dougg! The Summarit 70CS is my most used lens, on S2 and now S (Typ 007). Maybe 16000 of 20000+ exposures thus far. I shot 1400 exposures in a couple of hours most recently with 95% being with the 70. 

[menos I M6]

From what the OT describes I would state straight out that his 70/2.5 and /or body does have an issue.

 

There are several factors ion the equation:

- alignment of camera body AF system (this is an electronically calibrated setup, done at the factory)

- mechanical alignment of the focussing screen (a VERY laborious mechanical calibration, done exclusively at the factory)

- firmware on the camera body

- firmware on the lens / auto focus adaptor (in case of C645 and H Leica S adaptors)

- AF system of the lens

 

I had my share of focussing issues with my Leica S2, Leica S lenses and Contax 645 lenses.

 

First I would really have a Leica CS technician have a very good look at camera body and S lenses.

On my S2's last trip through Wetzlar, a body tech fine adjusted the autofocus calibration in the body and matched the focussing screen position just perfectly, which made a huge difference for all AF lenses I use on this body (Leica S and Contax).

 

If all gear is sound, the S lenses (ESPECIALLY the 70/2.5) should easily outperform ANY of the Contax AF lenses in speed of focus acquisition.

The 70/2.5 should not noticeably hunt - if it does something with the lens of body is wrong and should be taken care of.

 

I do use these Contax lenses:

- 45-90 Zoom

- 80/2

- 120/4 Macro

- 140/2.8

- 210/4

- 1.4x Mutar

- auto extension tubes

 

The Contax lenses are a mixed bag, some of them are exceptionally good, others are optically rather mediocre by today's standards, yet do also offer some interesting results.

 

The true high end performers even by today's standards are universally known:

 

- 35mm

- 80/2

- 120/4 (it is indeed on paar optically with Leica's own 120/2.5 Macro but packs true 1:1 reproduction ratio and the ability to use the C645 auto extension tubes as well, costing you 1 1/2 stop less light and the lack of AF)

- 350mm

 

The 140/2.8 is a fun lens, suited nicely for B&W (it has A LOT of color aberrations wide open and needs significant PP work in color).

The combination of the 140/2.8 + 210/4 and truly fantastic 1.4x Mutar makes for a lot of flexibility in longer focal lengths for small money.

The Zoom is optically not bad, but it is a bomb as a carry around.

The 80/2 and 120/4 are my two favorite Contax lenses.

The 80/2 can do things no other normal lens on a modern medium format system can do (it even works beautifully with the extension tubes to focus even closer, if that's your thing) + it is a truly beautifully performing lens when stopped down.

 

I really prefer the overall look of the 80/2 to the 70/2.5 Summarit but often choose the latter as for it's faster AF and slightly wider angle.

I wish Leica would give us a 70/2 S lens in a similar fashion as the 100/2 which is a wonderful lens in it's own right.

 

 

Untitled by Dirk Steffen, on Flickr

 

 

Have your lens and body checked at Leica and grab the whole Contax bag off your friend - you won't regret it.