Collectible vs Usable

[earleygallery]

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Sophie Mutter - a famous violin player - uses a Stradivari violin for her concerts.

Why not?

Jan

 

Actually this reminds me of a comment someone made about collectible cameras (I can't recall who it was but it was - I think - one of the TV antique programs).

 

The point was that much of the value in a used Stradivarius was in the fact it had been used and the patina - compared to cameras where the less used and preferably mint/boxed examples are most valuable.

 

There are exceptions I guess, i.e. HCB's M3 or similar.

[pgk]

Actually this reminds me of a comment someone made about collectible cameras (I can't recall who it was but it was - I think - one of the TV antique programs).

 

The point was that much of the value in a used Stradivarius was in the fact it had been used and the patina - compared to cameras where the less used and preferably mint/boxed examples are most valuable.

 

There are exceptions I guess, i.e. HCB's M3 or similar.

 

Not that I collect cameras, but I personally prefer to see well used cameras as opposed to mint examples. I find mint older cameras a bit boring whereas a battered and obviously heavily used camera has seen use and has stories to tell, if only it could. Much more to my taste. If I ever collect cameras (which is unlikely) it will be a cheap, battered collection .

[seekwhence]

I collect all pre-1946 German 35mm cameras for the intrinsic historic value of what they photographed during the most tumultuous period in human history. Most of my cameras (including about 20 Leicas) come directly from the families of the photographers and include actual negative and slide collections of what they saw and experienced then. Many of my cameras and lenses are in rough shape and hence, unusable but the blemishes tell compelling stories also. For example the one that deflected a bullet and saved a soldier's life. Unfortunately his luck ran out later and he couldn't be evacuated from Stalingrad but made sure his camera was! Then there is another camera I have where the lens and body is so dented from the Kriegsberichter (war correspondent) dropping to ground on top of it - to avoid being shot - you wouldn't believe images could still be made with it. Have I ever considered using any of my cameras? Of course, but then I hesitate. When I look at many of the slides and negatives they actually photographed, it somehow doesn't seem proper for me to use them once again. But that's just my opinion. I guess the best analogy I can come up with is there are some people who collect artist's palettes. Even if they're very good artists in their own right, should they use the palette again? I suppose that is the type of fundamental question we all ask ourselves as caretakers of historic objects - to use and reflect or just reflect?         

[Manoleica]

As youngsters my 2 sons went on a school visit to a few of the WW1 sites in France. On their return they produced a few bits of twisted metal and a few shell casings. They did not understand the importance as the event was far back in history, through my contacts I was able to take them to meet s few Chelsea Pensioners/WW1 veterans.. Thereafter they treasured and respected the items they had returned with.. My point, is that in a few years when we move on, the younger generations will not appreciate the endeavors of the WW11 generation.. Your cameras/history however wonderful and they truly are, will be lost on the generations to come as they had no part in the struggles and deprivations of those turmoiled times... I personally thank you for your keeping the photographic history alive..

Regards, L

[Wayne]

In truth, pertaining to ownership of a IIIC K camera, I would prefer a functional example that is "worse for the wear" than a well preserved example. I suppose the condition a Barnack is in when it comes to your possession dictates, to some degree, your obligations as the present owner of a historical artifact. After traveling through 80 years, and who knows how many hands, the present condition cannot help but become a significant part of the gestalt of a particular Barnack. It feels kind of odd to romanticize an old camera, but yet, somehow appropriate: each one left the factory as nothing more than a commodity, but now they circulate through collections and internet auctions as interesting individuals. Every time I use my IIIA (a converted five digit IA) I cannot help but realize, objectively, I am playing more of a role in its history than it, in mine.

 

OBTW, I did recently pull the trigger on a true, unmolested IA. I will post pictures when it arrives. Strangely, given what I said above about the condition I would prefer in a IIIC K model, this IA looks very nice......maybe one of the nicest I have seen. I am not sure if it a well preserved original, or a lovingly restored camera. I look forward to your help in figuring it out.

[250swb]

The problem for me between the 'collectable' and 'usable' tags are that the collectables are too good to stuff in a coat pocket or risk scratching and the usable always need something doing to them to make them usable, like a full service. I dream of finding a beat up M6 that works perfectly and just looks dodgy from the outside, alas they look beat up for a reason.

 

Steve

[willeica]

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The problem for me between the 'collectable' and 'usable' tags are that the collectables are too good to stuff in a coat pocket or risk scratching and the usable always need something doing to them to make them usable, like a full service. I dream of finding a beat up M6 that works perfectly and just looks dodgy from the outside, alas they look beat up for a reason.

 

Steve

 

 Collector's items are not just unused or mint cameras or ones still in boxes. This piece by Stephen Gandy, from his Camerquest website, addresses the issue of condition in the context of the Leica IIIcK:

 

http://www.cameraquest.com/leica_iiic_k_gray.htm

 

The sentence that really appeals to me is the one which states " Like most of the other rare Leica cameras, beware of cameras being in like new condition". He also strongly advises against repainting cameras like the IIIcK.

 

I have a particular aversion to cameras in original condition in their boxes or so-called 'special editions' produced as such by Leica. From my perspective, I don't see the point in collecting such items. I prefer to collect cameras which look like they have been used, but which are not completely 'battered'. The ultimate holy grail is some provenance regarding who might have used the camera. I only once found evidence of a previous owner, written inside a SCNOO winder. It turned out that he was a well known local photographer who lived not too far from New York. I also have a Leica film box which contains records, in writing inside the lid, of photos taken in the UK and Germany in 1935, but there is no evidence as to who the photographer was. Most times you just have to imagine who might have used the camera. The points made above by Manoleica, pgk, seekwhence and Wayne have a particular resonance for me, much more so than any 'special edition' dreamt up by marketing people in Solms or Wetzlar.

 

William

[jc_braconi]

"Objets inanimés, avez-vous donc une âme qui s'attache à notre âme et la force d'aimer"
(Alphonse de Lamartine)

[Manoleica]

"Objets inanimés, avez-vous donc une âme[/size] qui s'attache à notre âme et la force d'[/size]aimer"

(Alphonse de Lamartine)[/size]

And in English!

[pgk]

And in English!

 

"Inanimate objects, so you have a soul that attaches to our soul and strength to love" apparently

[pgk]

The problem for me between the 'collectable' and 'usable' tags are that the collectables are too good to stuff in a coat pocket or risk scratching and the usable always need something doing to them to make them usable, like a full service. I dream of finding a beat up M6 that works perfectly and just looks dodgy from the outside, alas they look beat up for a reason.

 

Steve

Not my experience at all. I have a black chrome M4 which I am having rebuilt, not because it no longer worked (it did) but because it deserved to have things like epoxied cracks in the body shell repaired. It is now awaiting collection but still looks very battered despite a new body shell and full CLA. I have some idea of its origins and suspect that it has shot 100s of 1000s of images so far - its was what can accurately be described as a working (not glamorous stuff) camera, and it will continue to be. I also now have another M4, which is far more collectible though equally battered, as it is black paint rather than black chrome. Funny world sometimes .

[Matlock]

As has been said many times in this thread, cameras were made to be used, not to be put in a display cabinet. However, in a non Leica context, I always used a Canon F1new in my SLR days. I traded it for a Canon EOS 1v and regretted it (nothing wrong with the EOS1v except it lacked something in my eyes). Some time ago I got the chance of a well maintained F1new and snapped it up. Great camera but a little scruffy in appearance. I then spotted a Mint (but not working) F1new for very little money.

​I now have a great camera to use (but it won't get as much use as my Leicas) and a display model. Problem solved. Or are we all mad? .

 

​ 

[jc_braconi]

As has been said many times in this thread, cameras were made to be used, not to be put in a display cabinet. 

​ 

First it depends how many you own

Second I will remember here that this forum is called "Collectors and Historica" and not user and future.

 

There are lot of other fora reserved for users in this great  website.

[willeica]

As has been said many times in this thread, cameras were made to be used, not to be put in a display cabinet. However, in a non Leica context, I always used a Canon F1new in my SLR days. I traded it for a Canon EOS 1v and regretted it (nothing wrong with the EOS1v except it lacked something in my eyes). Some time ago I got the chance of a well maintained F1new and snapped it up. Great camera but a little scruffy in appearance. I then spotted a Mint (but not working) F1new for very little money.

​I now have a great camera to use (but it won't get as much use as my Leicas) and a display model. Problem solved. Or are we all mad? .

 

​ 

 

When you go beyond a certain critical mass with your collection, using them all becomes physically impossible. I am not sure when I reached that number, but, now I have between 30 and 40 Leicas, I know that I am beyond that stage. Others I know have many more cameras than I have. Why do I do this? I honestly don't know any answer other than I enjoy doing it. As Louis Armstrong said when asked what is jazz" if you have to ask, you will never know". As for Matlock's parting question, the answer is yes, but we are having great fun at the same time.

 

William 

[Ambro51]

I'd suggest then this forum create a LTM shooters section. If I want a strictly collector camera..... One I never need bother to shoot, there's the Triad Fotron. BUT as long as 35mm film is available , my old Leicas will remain loaded and ready. We have multiple forums for newish Leica digibricks..which sooner than later will become piles of corroded obsolete unrepairable trash. My Leica A will still work

[pico]

Speaking only for myself, I do like having one unused extra of each Leica I have punished. A long time ago I learned that when I found something that worked well, and I could afford it, I would get another to put away - in case. Such a case never occurred with Leicas.  Lucky me. The only brand that followed the same was BMW motorcycles and the Harley I hand-built from scratch. There's a story there. Oh, and I have built a camera for myself. Of course it is not Leica-like.

[Matlock]

First it depends how many you own

Second I will remember here that this forum is called "Collectors and Historica" and not user and future.

 

There are lot of other fora reserved for users in this great  website.

 

I would agree with you and I do have a couple of Leicas that get little or no use.

As to your second point (again I agree with you) but I was simply replying to this thread, i.e. Collectable vs Usable.

[pgk]

 I am not sure when I reached that number, but, now I have between 30 and 40 Leicas, I know that I am beyond that stage.

 

And I struggle to use all 4 that I own! If everyone on this website was simply a 'user' rather than collector of Leicas, I suspect that we would be missing a great deal of the history and information about both cameras and lenses. Whilst I use cameras (or try to, all 4), I appreciate that some enjoy collecting even though I prefer well used copies for myself. I see no problem, nor contradiction here personally.

[Wayne]

Lord help me. I purchased it.....for about the same money as a one of those new Oly Pen cameras that are all the rage, and which appear to be curiously based on the design of my new/old Leica.

 

I have already loaded the TriX. It IS going to be used....and be a part of my "collection."

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Wayne]

Sorry, I am not really sure why the previous photo of the new camera is cut off. It has never happened before.

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