Wayne Posted March 5, 2016 Share #1 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I guess most Leica users deal with the temptation of purchasing a collectible model. I myself have been intrigued by the history and uniqueness of the IIIc K cameras. But the more I think about it, the more I wonder if the features that make the camera desirable as a collectible, e.g. the shutter curtain marked with K, also make the use of such a camera unwise. I assume, if such a shutter curtain were damaged through use, it would be near impossible to replace, and at the same time, retain the authenticity/collectible value of the camera. Are such cameras, once purchased, doomed to become mantle pieces?....even if they are perfectly usable? While I would love to own such a camera, I am not interested in owning something that I cannot enjoy the use of. Â Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 5, 2016 Posted March 5, 2016 Hi Wayne, Take a look here Collectible vs Usable. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
new2leica Posted March 5, 2016 Share #2 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Buy an attrape version. Â Problem solved! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 5, 2016 Author Share #3 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duckrider Posted March 5, 2016 Share #4 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Leicas were once made to take pictures, that's their primary sense. Using Your IIIc K in a normal manner will not destroy the camera. In worst case there might occur some signs of YOUR use . This will give a nearer 'relation' to Your cam. Mention You will not live forever, so having fun with the item gives living-quality, storing it in a cupboard or more worse in a tresor give You live no quality. With no doubt a preseries etc. is a want to get, but owning a million $ item is a weight on Your shoulder. Just my 5 cent Thomas Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted March 5, 2016 Share #5 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Sophie Mutter - a famous violin player - uses a Stradivari violin for her concerts. Why not? Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 5, 2016 Share #6  Posted March 5, 2016 My grey IIIcK works perfectly but I don't get to use it that often as I have about 30 other vintage Leicas. Don't ask why, it is just something that comes with collecting. I bought the IIIcK online from a very reputable dealer. I asked him about whether the K was still on the shutter and he said 'no'. I decided to go ahead with the purchase anyway as the K relates to bearings and not the shutter cloth. Some time later I was looking at the camera and I noticed a very faint 'K' on the shutter cloth, which had been worn over time. I do not blame the dealer for not noticing it.  Generally a replacement shutter cloth will not do damage to the 'originality' of a vintage Leica, unless it has a red shutter cloth or is a K model and even then the impact is not that great. My red shutter IIIc has a replacement shutter. The original red shutters tended to 'melt' over time.  One final thing about 'shelf queens' is that it is worthwhile taking them out and giving them a good winding and firing every now and then, as inactivity is not good for old mechanisms. 'Original condition' can often mean that nobody has either used or serviced the camera for 80 or 90 years. The chances of such a camera working are small enough, whereas a well used and serviced camera will be more likely to work straight away.  As for the 'one off' prototypes and other scarce models costing hundreds of thousands or even millions (choose your currency), the people who buy those do not do so to use them on the street. Now, I will wait for someone to contradict me on that.  Collectors' criteria and priorities are quite different to those of users  William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 5, 2016 Author Share #7 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thanks for the responses. I am interested in the K mostly because of the bearings. As much fun as it is to take, develop, and look at photographs, it is the overall feel of operating the Barnack cameras that is drawing me into buying cameras I do not need. I own a IIIG, IIIc, and a IIIa; each is in great condition and functions properly; but each feels so unique in operation........ Â I have always enjoyed ownership of older, classic creations, whether it be a car, motorcycle, guitar, or even a lawn mower. The Barnack cameras are a bit different in that I am able to keep one close at hand at all times. I find myself frequently distracted with thoughts about getting another. I appreciate your patience with questions that have probably been frequently asked....and answered. Â Wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 5, 2016 Share #8 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Hi Wayne, I can relate very much with what you say. I am fascinated by Leicas of the 1930s but would never buy anything to stick on a shelf. Â The answer for me has been to focus on the lenses. Â Whereas, as you say, wearing out or replacing certain camera parts will likely have an impact on the camera's value, there is little you can do to a lens, as long as you use it reasonably carefully, that will considerably downgrade its collectible value. Â That's at least part of my justification for owning and using a Thambar, or (from 1960) an LTM Summilux, among other rarities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 5, 2016 Share #9  Posted March 5, 2016 Sophie Mutter - a famous violin player - uses a Stradivari violin for her concerts. Why not? Jan Good comparision...  but she surely changes the strings, time to time, and with brand new ones, made from today's best manufacturers... no matters they aren't Stradivari's time strings : this isn't the same as to change "K" curtains...    (P.S. about Stradivari... : look on the net which is the family name of the violin inventor....  ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 5, 2016 Share #10 Â Posted March 5, 2016 Many mornings I awake with the resolve to sell those cameras that have become collectibles because, in part, I don't use them, and some have never been used. What's going on, here? Old age remorse? Where's the brash foolishness that possessed me to get a huge shoulder tattoo at 20 years-old? Where's the temerity that led me without a second thought to point my BMW Autobahn bike West from Minnesota to crash it into the Pacific Ocean? Oh, wait. I remember. There is no fear! I'm no longer subject to the draft and the Vietnam war is history, and besides I'm a vet with a special classification - if war breaks out I'm taken prisoner. Â But wait! There is a worse international disaster on the doorstep arising in the USA! Suddenly it is 1934 again. Â Okay! That's what I needed. Not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jc_braconi Posted March 6, 2016 Share #11  Posted March 6, 2016 Many mornings I awake with the resolve to sell those cameras that have become collectibles because, in part, I don't use them, and some have never been used. What's going on, here? Old age remorse? Where's the brash foolishness that possessed me to get a huge shoulder tattoo at 20 years-old? Where's the temerity that led me without a second thought to point my BMW Autobahn bike West from Minnesota to crash it into the Pacific Ocean? Oh, wait. I remember. There is no fear! I'm no longer subject to the draft and the Vietnam war is history, and besides I'm a vet with a special classification - if war breaks out I'm taken prisoner.  But wait! There is a worse international disaster on the doorstep arising in the USA! Suddenly it is 1934 again.  Okay! That's what I needed. Not. Is there a psychiatrist in this forum please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted March 6, 2016 Share #12  Posted March 6, 2016 Is there a psychiatrist in this forum please Call Trump Rubio & co. Ask for Ted.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted March 6, 2016 Share #13  Posted March 6, 2016 Sophie Mutter - a famous violin player - uses a Stradivari violin for her concerts. Why not? Jan   I agree with the premise of buying a camera that one can use and enjoy but the Sophie Mutter analogy is not valid.  Her violin sounds better than almost any other.  The image made with a IIIc K would be indistinguishable from that using any other film body. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 6, 2016 Share #14 Â Posted March 6, 2016 I agree with the premise of buying a camera that one can use and enjoy but the Sophie Mutter analogy is not valid. Â Her violin sounds better than almost any other. Â The image made with a IIIc K would be indistinguishable from that using any other film body. Â I agree, and it is probably heresy to say on a Leica Forum, but it is the photographer and not the camera or the lens that makes most of the difference. As for buying to collect as opposed to use, you first have to get the 'collector's disease' in order to understand that. To each his own, or 'chacun a son gout' as the French might say. Â William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 6, 2016 Share #15 Â Posted March 6, 2016 While I would love to own such a camera, I am not interested in owning something that I cannot enjoy the use of. Â The pleasures of owning (collecting) and using are different. Sometimes they can coincide but all too often they can't. Personally I have two relatively unusual Leicas both of which have been hard used already - so I have no qualms about using them . If they were pristine I would have but then again I enjoy usage rather than ownership per se, so I'm unlikely to ever buy older cameras which are immaculate because I know that I will use them. IMO you need to decide which gives you most pleasure and go from there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted March 6, 2016 Author Share #16  Posted March 6, 2016 It has been fun reading the responses. I suppose, as I do not intend to go "whole hog" on collectible Leicas, I will just leave that universe alone. It is almost as satisfying to behold the many beautiful photographs of other's cameras; I will forego the joy of fondling them. I did take M9Reno's advise: I bought a Nikkor 35mm 2.5 LSM lens. It too is a little gem. It came with the original caps. It looks like Nippon Kogaku engraved the cap, rather than emboss. I figure, if I pass on the IIIC K, I can go for the Nippon 28mm 3.4......and maybe even the 35 1.4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 6, 2016 Share #17  Posted March 6, 2016 For Raider before you finally make up your mind. These are my two grey IIIs, a IIIcK and a IIIc. Both of these collector's items take very nice pictures.  Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  The IIIc is somewhat more worn than the IIIcK. The IIIc is carrying a Summar with a nicely brassed black front rim.  William Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  The IIIc is somewhat more worn than the IIIcK. The IIIc is carrying a Summar with a nicely brassed black front rim.  William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257672-collectible-vs-usable/?do=findComment&comment=3003126'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 7, 2016 Share #18  Posted March 7, 2016 Just to finish this off, here is a photo of the my IIIck with the very faint 'K' showing on the shutter. The camera is quite dark in the photo as I boosted contrast to show this. The 'K' is so faint that it has to be original - a 'faker' would have made an obvious 'K' . The camera is a 100% genuine, and has been listed at Westlicht on at least one occasion. I actually bought it, on the basis that it did not have the 'K' on the shutter, from a very reliable dealer.  Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  The 'K' is in the exact same orientation as this clear one shown in Jim Lager's Cameras book.   William     Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  The 'K' is in the exact same orientation as this clear one shown in Jim Lager's Cameras book.   William     ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/257672-collectible-vs-usable/?do=findComment&comment=3003429'>More sharing options...
M9reno Posted March 8, 2016 Share #19 Â Posted March 8, 2016 William, I'm not sure I see yours. Â Is your K pointing down (as opposed to the illustration below, where it is pointing up)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 8, 2016 Share #20 Â Posted March 8, 2016 It is pointing up, hence my reference to 'orientation'. It is more clear to the naked eye than I can make it. You will see the 'leg' of the K faintly just below the rangefinder cam. For me it is an 'added bonus'. The camera is genuine and is in good working order. Much use has worn away the 'K'. Â William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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