Flash performance very disappointing on the SL

[Peter Walker]

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I was trying to take some photos last week on an island in the middle of the Irrawaddy river with the SL and SF24, where we were having a farewell party after our cruise from Yangon to Mandalay. I gave up with the flash and went back to the boat for my 0.95 Noctilux. 

 

Wilson

 

 

You left a Noctilux by itself on a boat in Myanmar?   Living dangerously?   

 

I know theft is not common in some parts of Southeast Asia but tourist areas are the one place where camera theft does happen.

 

Regards

Peter

[wlaidlaw]

Peter, 

 

Myanmar is very different (at present). In most south east asia countries you might be right but honestly still rules in Myanmar, other than in the large cities and even there, you never feel threatened or uncomfortable, like you can do in many middle east countries. At all times, we felt totally safe. I actually felt I was being overly paranoid using a belt loop wallet. In any case, the Nocti was in a locked cabin on the boat, with a gangway watch by the crew on duty. Also we were anchored in the middle of the Irrawaddy, so a get-away would have been difficult.

 

I cannot praise the company we used for the cruise, Pandaw, highly enough. The crew/guest ratio was 1:1 and the whole thing was like a well run private super yacht and, as I sometimes have been the photographer accompanying one of the judges at the Monaco super yacht show, I know what that is. The only area they could improve on was the food, which we felt was sometimes a bit bland. 

 

The tourism problems will eventually hit Myanmar but at the moment, tourists in the more remote areas are still a novelty to the locals. We often had as many locals taking pics of us with their phones, as we did of them. Elderly ladies often wanted to pose with us, while their grandsons took a photo of them. 

 

Mobile phones are the new big thing there, with thousands of mobile phone shops having sprung up over the last year or so, ranging from a large glossy shop in the larger cities, to a roadside shack in the villages. A mobile phone and contract cost around US$5,000 and a letter of authority from the military was needed, just three to four years ago. Now you can buy a second hand chinese or korean smart phone from around US$10 and a 3G SIM card for Ky 250 (US ¢20).

 

Over more than two weeks, my wife and I used about Ky 12.000 of data (US$10) on my iPhone hotspot with a local SIM card, doing a considerable amount of emails each day, looking at news sites and downloading books, etc. 3G coverage from the Oredoo company was good to excellent all the way along the Irrawaddy from Yangon to Mandalay and for 70km north of Mandalay, which was the area we covered. The consistency of 3G coverage was better than the UK!

 

A pic taken with the SL and Nocti of the island beach party. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[Peter Walker]

Peter, 

 

Myanmar is very different (at present). In most south east asia countries you might be right but honestly still rules in Myanmar, other than in the large cities and even there, you never feel threatened or uncomfortable, like you can do in many middle east countries. At all times, we felt totally safe. I actually felt I was being overly paranoid using a belt loop wallet. In any case, the Nocti was in a locked cabin on the boat, with a gangway watch by the crew on duty. Also we were anchored in the middle of the Irrawaddy, so a get-away would have been difficult.

 

I cannot praise the company we used for the cruise, Pandaw, highly enough. The crew/guest ratio was 1:1 and the whole thing was like a well run private super yacht and, as I sometimes have been the photographer accompanying one of the judges at the Monaco super yacht show, I know what that is. The only area they could improve on was the food, which we felt was sometimes a bit bland. 

 

The tourism problems will eventually hit Myanmar but at the moment, tourists in the more remote areas are still a novelty to the locals. We often had as many locals taking pics of us with their phones, as we did of them. Elderly ladies often wanted to pose with us, while their grandsons took a photo of them. 

 

Mobile phones are the new big thing there, with thousands of mobile phone shops having sprung up over the last year or so, ranging from a large glossy shop in the larger cities, to a roadside shack in the villages. A mobile phone and contract cost around US$5,000 and a letter of authority from the military was needed, just three to four years ago. Now you can buy a second hand chinese or korean smart phone from around US$10 and a 3G SIM card for Ky 250 (US ¢20).

 

Over more than two weeks, my wife and I used about Ky 12.000 of data (US$10) on my iPhone hotspot with a local SIM card, doing a considerable amount of emails each day, looking at news sites and downloading books, etc. 3G coverage from the Oredoo company was good to excellent all the way along the Irrawaddy from Yangon to Mandalay and for 70km north of Mandalay, which was the area we covered. The consistency of 3G coverage was better than the UK!

 

A pic taken with the SL and Nocti of the island beach party. 

 

Wilson

 

 

 

Hi Wilson,

 

You might notice from my profile box that I live in Thailand.  I have done so for the last 30 years.  I've been in and out of Myanmar dozens of times, often driving in through many of the land borders.  So no need to tell me about what's different.  And what's not.  I know that petty crime rates are very low.  But not zero.  And they are most prevalent around wealthy tourists.  And often involve the local police.  And hotel staff.

 

A friend of mine had some gem stones stolen.  Fortunately her husband is a very senior Thai military officer.  One phone call and, a day later, the gemstones reappeared.  It was probably a ring involving hotel staff, police and/or army.  The speed of the return indicates that it was not a one-man-band or street crooks.

 

So, while the theft risk is much less than in most Western countries, it can not be ignored if you are a tourist with expensive stuff.

 

Regards

Peter

[wlaidlaw]

Peter, 

 

We were more circumspect in Yangon and Mandalay, where I suspect most of the fairly modest level of crime occurs. We spoke to a number of the Burmese crew on the Pandaw boat we were on for the majority of our trip and they told us that they felt lucky and privileged to have a job with Pandaw, who seem to be a particularly good employer. They said that they felt it was part of their remit, to make sure that their passengers were safe and secure.

 

I would never consider buying any precious stones in Myanmar, since it would appear that a large proportion are at best heat treated to enhance their appearance and at worse, are valueless paste. We got caught with this scam in Bangkok in 1985, buying at a "Government Approved" store, where the 2ct peridot we bought, with a certificate of authenticity, which was as much value as the stone we bought, that was paste. Luckily it only cost us $25, so not a big loss. 

 

Wilson

[steppenw0lf]

Wilson

 

 

Hello Wilson,

 

some time ago you gave us a nice short advisory how best to use flash on the SL with R- and M-lenses (non-AF usage).

Did you have the time to try flash again since the 2.0 firmware update ?

If yes, could you try to repeat your summary for level 2.0, or better to check if your summary needs any corrections or additions ?

I remember you hoped for the update to fix most problems with flash.

 

Maybe it is still too early and it is better to wait and give the testers 2-3 more weeks ?

 

Anyway I just wanted to reconnect the link. Thanks in advance.

 

Stephan

[meerec]

I thought I'd wait until I got my SF40 to make sure this is an issue. Unfortunately it is. The flash system on the SL is seriously broken and Leica need to put in a fix, fast. If you shoot with hotshoe flash I think you'll have to hold off on the SL for now.

 

These are my observations using a SF40, SF26 and 2xSF58's (fw 1.1 and 2.0)

 

1. Things appear to be normal in P and T modes. The flash fires as it should and exposures are fine (maybe a 1/3 stop under). However these modes are not available if you shoot M or R lenses.

 

2. In A mode the flash simply refuses to fire if the shutter speed is between 1/60 and 1/500 of a second. Are you serious Leica?? So you have no fill in flash throughout a significant range of shutter speeds in A mode.

 

3, M mode the shutter will fire at all shutter speeds. But as soon as you turn on the flash the exposure preview function for the EVF is disabled. So it's near impossible to visually judge a background exposure except by using the +/- in the EVF display. This totally negates the benefit of having an EVF.

 

So in short, if you have the 24-90 you'll get expected operation in T mode. If you use adapted M or r lenses you're flat out of luck.

 

I'm so incredibly disappointed by this. My main reason for spending $18,000 AUD was to get a better flash experience with the EVF than the M (sludgy with the grip/adaptor/plate setup). In my work I NEED to have an EVF and flash at the same time. Did no one at Leica or any of the several people involved with pre production cameras even put a flash on the hotshoe?

 

I accept that either my camera is faulty or there is a workaround I have missed. Has anybody with an SL and TTL flash got the camera to fire at all shutter speeds in AV mode? Or the EVF to display exposure preview with flash in M mode?

 

Gordon

 

 

Hi Gordon ... I own the SF 40 and just tried it now, followed your post. I use only M lenses on my SL. Here are my findings.

 

In the A mode, I cannot confirm your issue. I set ISO to 800, f=4 and this results with a shutter speeds anywhere between 1/100s to 1/250s in my current light. Turn the flash on in the hotshoe, and it fires no problems. I wouldn't say the exposure is precise and correct, it appears to be overexposed, when pointing the flash head forward. I can see the pre-flash firing, and then the flash itself. But I can reduce the power, or tilt the head upwards to bounce the light from the ceiling and then everything seems fine.

 

In the M mode, I agree with you. The exposure preview in EVF is turned off the moment you turn the flash on.

[meerec]

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When shooting M lenses with SF 40 I get best and most satisfying results in either A or M mode, with ISO set to AutoISO.

In M mode, as noted by Gordon (FlashGordonPhotography) earlier, the EVF exposure preview is turned off unfortunately.

BTW, I shoot with firmware 2.0 now.

[wlaidlaw]

Hello Wilson,

 

some time ago you gave us a nice short advisory how best to use flash on the SL with R- and M-lenses (non-AF usage).

Did you have the time to try flash again since the 2.0 firmware update ?

If yes, could you try to repeat your summary for level 2.0, or better to check if your summary needs any corrections or additions ?

I remember you hoped for the update to fix most problems with flash.

 

Maybe it is still too early and it is better to wait and give the testers 2-3 more weeks ?

 

Anyway I just wanted to reconnect the link. Thanks in advance.

 

Stephan

 

Stephan, 

 

Very brief report as just packing 6 months of stuff into a 2+2 car for going to France early tomorrow morning. Flash seems to work fine now in Aperture Priority, Fixed ISO, slow speed sync (either at 1/f or 1/2xf) or fixed speed. FW 2.0 also seems to have sent an update to my series 1 SF-58D as it is now changing to TTL-HSS automatically rather than manually. Flash did not work the first time I tried it but after switching the flash off, camera off, flash on then camera on once more, all came to life correctly. I assume that was the update being done on the SF58. Was taking pictures at a wedding last night and all seemed to look good on the LCD. Can't post a picture as left the SD card with my niece, who is going to develop the RAW images, sort and print the best along with the ones she took with her Nikon D4, to give to the bride and groom. 

 

Wilson

 

PS Exposure control using the 58 on bounce or bounce + swivel and/or with a diffusor plus the secondary flash on fill in, is considerably more accurate on the SL than it is on the M240. 

Edited April 17, 2016 by wlaidlaw

[steppenw0lf]

Wilson.

 

Thanks very much and best wishes for your trip/relocation !

 

Stephan

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Hi Gordon ... I own the SF 40 and just tried it now, followed your post. I use only M lenses on my SL. Here are my findings.

 

In the A mode, I cannot confirm your issue. I set ISO to 800, f=4 and this results with a shutter speeds anywhere between 1/100s to 1/250s in my current light. Turn the flash on in the hotshoe, and it fires no problems. I wouldn't say the exposure is precise and correct, it appears to be overexposed, when pointing the flash head forward. I can see the pre-flash firing, and then the flash itself. But I can reduce the power, or tilt the head upwards to bounce the light from the ceiling and then everything seems fine.

 

In the M mode, I agree with you. The exposure preview in EVF is turned off the moment you turn the flash on.

 

Which firmware are you using? 90% of the flash issues are resolved with fw 2.0. My original post was with fw 1.2 and was confirmed both by Leica and other users. A significant part of 2.0 involved fixing those issues.

 

Gordon

[sillbeers15]

With firmware 2.0 loaded, my SF58 seems to work fine with the 24-90mm on the SL.

[meerec]

Which firmware are you using? 90% of the flash issues are resolved with fw 2.0. My original post was with fw 1.2 and was confirmed both by Leica and other users. A significant part of 2.0 involved fixing those issues.

 

Gordon

 

 

That's good news about the fixes in firmware. Using firmware 2.0 now of course. Still some issues, as discussed ... 

[mavr]

That's good news about the fixes in firmware. Using firmware 2.0 now of course. Still some issues, as discussed ... 

I wonder if also exposure preview in viewfinder with FW 2.0 or FW 2.1 works as expected, ... or is still switched off when flash is used?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I wonder if also exposure preview in viewfinder with FW 2.0 or FW 2.1 works as expected, ... or is still switched off when flash is used?

 

It works in T,A and P modes but it is still disabled in manual mode on the camera when using a TTL flash. You can double tap the front button to enable it but you have to do this for every shot.

 

I have written to Leica about this.

 

Gordon

[ski542002]

Last post on this thread was a while back; wondering if there are any positive updates.  I'm revisiting using a TTL flash with my SL.  The only thing that's keeping me from using the SL 100% of the time (instead of my Canon bodies), is the lack of a zoom and a capable reliable accurate TTL flash.  I'm purchasing the SL 24-90 soon; takes care of the zoom issue.  I have numerous M lenses to supplement.  

 

To the flash quandary.  I'd love a TTL flash to function on the SL, as well as my Canon TTL speedlights perform on any Canon body, including my 10 year old DSMKIII. My ONLY use for quick run-and-gun flash on the SL will be fully manual aperture, and fully manual shutter speed, from 1/250th down to as low as I desire; always mounted on camera hot-shoe.   Maximum camera to subject distance might be 20 feet with a 21mm (M) lens, usually no deeper the F5.6.  Most shot at closer distances. Need to be able to adjust my TTL flash exposure on-the-fly, as I can do with my Canon. Flash would need to zoom to cover the zoom range of the 24-90.  Don't want to have to dig 18 levels deep in a menu to adjust any settings!

Does such an animal exist with TTL?  Does not need to be Leica-branded.

 

I have 5 fully manual speedlights and numerous studio strobes when needed.  My concern is on-camera TTL used primarily with the 24-90.

[Jared]

For TTL, it's Leica branded or forget it. I have used the SF58 with my SL for TTL flash and it works OK, but I certainly wouldn't suggest it's as good as the Canon system for this particular use.  Leica has now replaced the SF58 with the SF64.  In theory, it meets all your requirements:

 

- Autozoom from 24 up to 90--check!

- TTL with manual aperture and manual shutter when mounted on camera--check!

- Maximum subject distance of 20 feet at wide angle and f/5.6, ISO 50--check!

- Able to cover a 21mm angle of view--only with the diffuser dropped into place

- Adjust flash exposure on the fly (you can do it in-camera or on the flash itself and program a preset button on the SL if you like)--check!

 

The SF 40 will also cover several of your requirements, but not quite all:

 

-Autozoom from 24 up to 90--check!

- TTL with manual aperture and manual shutter when mounted on camera--check! (though it tends to overexpose with subjects inside two meters in my experience)

- Maximum subject distance of 20 feet at wide angle and f/5.6, ISO 50--not quite; you'd get 20 feet at base ISO and 90mm, but at 24 you'd need to pump up the ISO a touch

- Able to cover a 21mm lens--with the diffuser dropped into place, yes

- Adjust flash exposure on the fly (when using an SL)--sort of; you have to do it through the camera, not using the FEC wheel on the back.  It's the opposite with an 'M' camera

 

The SF40 is actually pretty decent, but nothing special.  Good for casual use or fill flash, but not particularly powerful.  HSS works.

 

In general, I have yet to see a Leica TTL flash system that is as reliable as Canon's or Nikon's.  Workable?  Certainly.  Nails exposure every time in TTL mode?  Hardly.  Easy to change on the fly?  Yes (with the SF64 or the SF40).  

 

- Jared

[ski542002]

For TTL, it's Leica branded or forget it. I have used the SF58 with my SL for TTL flash and it works OK, but I certainly wouldn't suggest it's as good as the Canon system for this particular use.  Leica has now replaced the SF58 with the SF64.  In theory, it meets all your requirements:

 

- Autozoom from 24 up to 90--check!

- TTL with manual aperture and manual shutter when mounted on camera--check!

- Maximum subject distance of 20 feet at wide angle and f/5.6, ISO 50--check!

- Able to cover a 21mm angle of view--only with the diffuser dropped into place

- Adjust flash exposure on the fly (you can do it in-camera or on the flash itself and program a preset button on the SL if you like)--check!

 

The SF 40 will also cover several of your requirements, but not quite all:

 

-Autozoom from 24 up to 90--check!

- TTL with manual aperture and manual shutter when mounted on camera--check! (though it tends to overexpose with subjects inside two meters in my experience)

- Maximum subject distance of 20 feet at wide angle and f/5.6, ISO 50--not quite; you'd get 20 feet at base ISO and 90mm, but at 24 you'd need to pump up the ISO a touch

- Able to cover a 21mm lens--with the diffuser dropped into place, yes

- Adjust flash exposure on the fly (when using an SL)--sort of; you have to do it through the camera, not using the FEC wheel on the back.  It's the opposite with an 'M' camera

 

The SF40 is actually pretty decent, but nothing special.  Good for casual use or fill flash, but not particularly powerful.  HSS works.

 

In general, I have yet to see a Leica TTL flash system that is as reliable as Canon's or Nikon's.  Workable?  Certainly.  Nails exposure every time in TTL mode?  Hardly.  Easy to change on the fly?  Yes (with the SF64 or the SF40).  

 

- Jared

Thank you Jared.

 

I have the 58 and although I popped $7,500 for the SL, I can't stomach spending close to $1000 for any shoe mount flash. Going to try to get the 58 to work with the SL, even though I hate the 58's menu system. Still might consider the SF 40.

[meerec]

Thank you Jared.

I have the 58 and although I popped $7,500 for the SL, I can't stomach spending close to $1000 for any shoe mount flash. Going to try to get the 58 to work with the SL, even though I hate the 58's menu system. Still might consider the SF 40.

I sold two Canon speedlites to buy the SF40.

I'm happy with it but it does have its quirks and weaker times.

It's not always as per the manual or what you'd expect.

[Ken Abrahams]

I have read many posts here about flash and the SL especially regarding on the SF 64. I am left confused and bewildered and without much confidence to purchase the Leica flash. I want to be able to put the flash on the camera and it to work with TTL and on or off camera HSS. Can someone say definitively that the SF64 will work as such on my SL?    

 

Ken

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[Alo Ako]

and it to work with TTL and on or off camera HSS.

 

TTL and HSS works on camera only. If you use a Nikon flash cable, off camera works. You are limited by the length of the cable. Without cable the SF 64 works as a thumb flash only, no TTL, no HSS.