jpk Posted January 26, 2016 Share #1 Posted January 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi! After the first couple of hundret shots with my S 006 I got the impression that the AF does not nail focus as accurate as the S2P I had on loan for a while. Today I made some test shots with my S-70mm and S-180mm. With both lenses I have to manually turn the focus ring in the direction towards infinity after AF lock to get sharp results. I can see the difference in the viewfinder! Here are the results: Full frame of the 180mm: 100% crop from the center - manual focus: 100% crop from the center - auto focus: Full frame of the 70mm: 100% crop from the center - manual focus: 100% crop from the center - auto focus: Here are the original DNG files: 180mm: manual focus 180mm: auto focus 70mm: manual focus 70mm: auto focus And here is a short video how I carried out the focus tests. The settings I used in Lightroom: sharpening and noise reduction and lens profiles disabled, all other sliders set to zero / default, WB manually set. The camera was mounted on a tripod, AF is set to the back button (=joystick), mirror lockup enabled and selftimer set to 2 seconds. AF is set to static AF, and I push and hold the joystick until the focus motor stops making any noise which takes in best daylight a bit less than one second typically. Please listen to the AF noise in the video! I repeated all tests many times to make sure to minimize user errors. I selected pictures which show not the greatest but the least difference between manual focus and AF! That means with AF I regularly get worse results, but never better than the shown samples. What do you think??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 26, 2016 Posted January 26, 2016 Hi jpk, Take a look here S 006 focus error. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erlingmm Posted January 26, 2016 Share #2 Posted January 26, 2016 The 180 is the most difficult to focus of the S lenses. And you are very close to windows with strong mirroring effects. I would re-try on a "cleaner" surface, but with contrasts enough for the autfocus to "bite". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share #3 Posted January 26, 2016 The 180 is the most difficult to focus of the S lenses. And you are very close to windows with strong mirroring effects. I would re-try on a "cleaner" surface, but with contrasts enough for the autfocus to "bite". As shown in the video the problem is not related to difficulties to get the AF locked. Also the focus sensor is far enough from the windows. I tried many times on other surfaces, it doesn't make any difference. And the amount I have to manually correct focus after I use AF is always very similar. Please do not doubt the test method, the problem is not related to the test situation at all, it appears always. The 006 focuses even in very dim situations very accurate, it just takes a bit longer to get the AF locked, but with always the same amount of focus error. Yes, the 180mm needs careful focusing. But as shown the problem seems independent from the lens, it's the same with the 70mm. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted January 26, 2016 Share #4 Posted January 26, 2016 I installed a micro prism and the AF works perfectly even with the 30mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted January 26, 2016 Share #5 Posted January 26, 2016 The 30mm would be easier to AF than the 180mm.... john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted January 26, 2016 Share #6 Posted January 26, 2016 It's the same with my 30, 70 and 120mm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted January 26, 2016 Share #7 Posted January 26, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) I know, as it is with my selection from 24mm to 180mm but that is on an S2. john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted January 26, 2016 Share #8 Posted January 26, 2016 Check that the focus screen is correctly seated? If you see the problem with more than one lens and you are satisfied with your testing, I wouldn't hesitate to get Leica Camera to check and calibrate it for you. Then you will know it is operating perfectly. I don't think that you will feel confident with the system otherwise. Good luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erlingmm Posted January 26, 2016 Share #9 Posted January 26, 2016 If you can focus manually, the problem is not the focus screen. The only other thing I could think of is to check that all lenses (and camera) are upgraded to latest firmware. If that is OK, seems the camera has to be checked by Leica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share #10 Posted January 26, 2016 Thanks for the input! Of course I have the latest firmware installed. So can anybody confirm that the behaviour of my 006 is normal? Or that it is not normal??? Also I would like to know: in my video you can hear the AF sound, does it sound OK for you? It was bright daylight, 1/500 at ISO 100 with the 70mm... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted January 26, 2016 Share #11 Posted January 26, 2016 You are not alone. There are a few issue(or question) I see in Leica S focusing system. 1. The center focus spot is big, the algorithm is not clear. You will think it is the cross mark but it also rely on rest of cycle if cross center fail but heaven know the camera decide which portion of the cycle will be used for focusing. This is especially tricky for long distance focusing for small tree, rock etc..those small cycle could cover quite of distance for WA lens. the biggest problem is camera still decide it is lock focusing even it is not. no matter AF-S or AF-C. 2. The hyper focusing implementation in camera. TBH, I only found this hidden feature half year ago. I notice at small aperture, if camera detect the focusing point is within DOF window, it will not re-engage the focusing. It is really annoy that I have to Wide open the aperture to re engage the AF. This is a big flaw to me as no way the camera know what is optimized DOF window I want cover, where is my main subject I want absolutely in focus. and I think this pose a huge problem in field for me. For landscape, you will assume the lens focus at WO so that you can choose hyper focus point yourself to cover DOF. this way you can use best suitable aperture for the IQ. (S glass is capable shoot landscape WO at low light if no DOF need cover) but many case I have no idea where is the camera focusing point if it is not re engage the focusing. Sometime, I feel the long distance focusing error may stem from this hyper focusing implementation. I still haven't heard back from Leica so far. The way I can work with it now is either manually turn lens all the way to MFD or AF focus at really close distance to reengage the AF and focus again. 3. The AF itself may not accurate enough once distance get longer. I find my both cameras also show tendency of front focusing. I did one test before: shooting power pole on street. I can clear see the pattern that the further away the pole, and focusing locate more front potion of DOF window until it is out of DOF. Canikon also show tendency of more focus error once distance longer, especially for long distance and AFC with certain lens. but not as poor as Leica S. In last year, a trip to Zion and Bryce. I shoot lens WO infinity for Zion Mountain, only find my result are subpar in hotel. I did a extensive testing that find S's AF is not trust-able for anything small subject at infinity. like green mountoun for trees etc... even you would think those given good enough contrast. and won't be any problem for Canon, nikon, or Sony camera but they are for Leica. The biggest problem is I'd rather it hunting and fail to lock focusing than show me "OK, just press the button." However sometimes they were able to lock focus correctly at mountain edge with dramatic cloud, or huge building from SF at infinity. A long post, hopefully you have the patience read thus far. to summarize in simple, the AF is not good at longer distance. Reason unknown: could be just poor AF, could be fault hyper focusing algorithm. I have been exchange email with Leica NJ about it. They promise will take care of it. but instead of sending camera to them for 3 month service, I want make sure this is an isolated case for myself. (I doubt it though, both of my S camera just given a clean check and were come back from Leica Germany last year. ) The reason I can find the problem is I am pretty technical on this and always want optimized my results for given condition. For portrait, you might not see this problem. I didn't. Usually you don't shoot your people subject 30M away. For landscape, f8 or f11, it is hard to detect this focus error that Jip has posted above. Most leica S user are studio, fashion, wedding use. For them, it is not a problem. Sorry for the typo. on mobile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share #12 Posted January 26, 2016 A long post, hopefully you have the patience read thus far. to summarize in simple, the AF is not good at longer distance. Many thanks for posting your findings! I am very disappointed because the accuracy of the AF system is very important for me. 1. The center focus spot is big, the algorithm is not clear. You will think it is the cross mark but it also rely on rest of cycle if cross center fail but heaven know the camera decide which portion of the cycle will be used for focusing. This is especially tricky for long distance focusing for small tree, rock etc... I did not notice problems so far with the size of the AF spot. 2. The hyper focusing implementation in camera. TBH, I only found this hidden feature half year ago. I notice at small aperture, if camera detect the focusing point is within DOF window, it will not re-engage the focusing. I noticed that the AF does not always re-focus, so my usual habit is to de-focus manually to make sure AF is re-invoked. For landscape, f8 or f11, it is hard to detect this focus error On the 180mm the focus sometimes does not fall into the DOF area even at F8... 3. The AF itself may not accurate enough once distance get longer. I find my both cameras also show tendency of front focusing. In theory if in near distance you have correct focus it should be possible to compensate far distance focus errors by firmware or adjust the AF system mechanically. Please let me know once you have a clear answer from Leica about this! The S lenses have individual focus calibration data stored in their chips IIRC, and Leica was very proud of the resulting accuracy of the S system's AF. And that's the reason why the S bodys do not offer focus fine tuning settings. I hope that the factory can overwrite the focus compensation data of the S lenses with new measured values! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share #13 Posted January 27, 2016 the AF is not good at longer distance. Reason unknown: could be just poor AF, could be fault hyper focusing algorithm. I just checked again: both of my lenses focus correctly at close distances!!! And: the problem is not related to the hyper focusing algorithm. I checked by taking photographs of the moon (very bright tonight: ISO 100 at F8 and 1/500, AF locks instantly), and the focus was always way out of the DOF area, resulting in totally unusable images. With manual focus I easily get correct focus and wonderful moon pictures... Do you think that the reason can not be incorrect focus adjustment of body and/or lens(es)? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylgo Posted January 27, 2016 Share #14 Posted January 27, 2016 Several thoughts on this: My S2 is dead accurate on both autofocus and manual focus, also S-E. Diglloyd reported his sample had focus errors. Is your viewfinder focus confirmation lit for either autofocus or manual focus, that might lend a clue as to camera/lens error. I have tested many S lenses, except for motor issues they were accurately focused by the camera, sample image variation occurred but I rarely found focus to be an issue with lenses. I remember reading somewhere that Leica uses very accurate methodology to insure proper autofocus and viewfinder accuracy of proper focus. Your results clearly show an issue, it is also clear you need to repair or replace, AF should be better. Concerning Autofocus sound, my S-E has a pingy sound with S lenses, the S2 does not. When I inquired about it, the dealer said it is normal and I am thinking the difference in sound is due to increased speed of the S-E. I can hear a slight ping in your video however I can not make any determination other than it is very fast. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share #15 Posted January 27, 2016 Is your viewfinder focus confirmation lit for either autofocus or manual focus, that might lend a clue as to camera/lens error. Many thanks for your input! The focus confirmation lits when AF locks, but if I apply manual correction it shows an arrow. Same with manual focus: incorrect focus = confirmation lits, correct focus = arrow. I remember reading somewhere that Leica uses very accurate methodology to insure proper autofocus and viewfinder accuracy of proper focus. As I can achieve proper focus manually the viewfinder of my S 006 seems to be accurate. Your results clearly show an issue, it is also clear you need to repair or replace, AF should be better. OK, I will send in both the camera and the lenses. Concerning Autofocus sound, my S-E has a pingy sound with S lenses, the S2 does not. Yes, that's also how I remember the S2. My S 006 first makes a motor noise and after that does very fine corrections which sound like a (not so) high pitch frequency. I have tested many S lenses, except for motor issues they were accurately focused by the camera, sample image variation occurred but I rarely found focus to be an issue with lenses. Did you ever experience focus error in the far distance but correct focus in the near range? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darylgo Posted January 27, 2016 Share #16 Posted January 27, 2016 Did you ever experience focus error in the far distance but correct focus in the near range? What I found with S lenses is they correctly focus at all distances. However, I will retract my prior statement about a lack of focus issues. When I test my lenses I photograph a tree trunk at 70 feet, the camera is tethered to a computer and Leica Shuttle software reads the focus distance set by the camera/lens in tenths of a meter. Different lenses will give slightly different distance measurements when proper focus is achieved, however I do get variation within each lens. An example is the 120mm lens will focus 21.3 meters correctly. If I manually change focus distance followed by AF focus, the variation will be about 2 meters, mostly front focus. I believe the camera is at it's limits for AF accuracy with such a low contrast subject so I dismiss this. In my field shooting, I don't see any softness from improper focus as you have exhibited, perhaps it is masked by handholding, field tripod shooting exhibits great focus accuracy. On my S2 body the viewfinder center cross does not match the correct focus spot. Correct is slight lower left quadrant. It's always been that way since purchase. The 006 had an update about a year ago, it also updated lenses, assuming this has been done. From what you said about the viewfinder focus indicator and the consistency of lens to lens AF issues, the body is the issue. Did you have the same lenses when shooting the S2? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted January 27, 2016 Share #17 Posted January 27, 2016 SNIP.......Most leica S user are studio, fashion, wedding use. For them, it is not a problem. My S photography is in studio so I am using closer focus ranges of course. Bu focus is much more critical and DoF much less there even when stopped well down. Any system AF problem there would be much more noticeable than at infinity just on DoF alone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted January 27, 2016 Share #18 Posted January 27, 2016 I thought the S focus is based on Contrast Detect AF, therefore it should be pretty accurate in most bright situation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share #19 Posted January 27, 2016 When I test my lenses I photograph a tree trunk at 70 feet, the camera is tethered to a computer and Leica Shuttle software reads the focus distance set by the camera/lens in tenths of a meter. Different lenses will give slightly different distance measurements when proper focus is achieved, however I do get variation within each lens. An example is the 120mm lens will focus 21.3 meters correctly. If I manually change focus distance followed by AF focus, the variation will be about 2 meters, mostly front focus. Do you mean the focus variation is within 2 meters with tendency to front focus? Or that Leica Shuttle reads different values each time focusing for the same distance...? The 006 had an update about a year ago, it also updated lenses, assuming this has been done. I have the latest firmware on 006 and lenses... Did you have the same lenses when shooting the S2? I had only a 70mm, but not the one I have now. My S photography is in studio so I am using closer focus ranges of course. Bu focus is much more critical and DoF much less there even when stopped well down. Any system AF problem there would be much more noticeable than at infinity just on DoF alone. If near infinity I can notice focus errors, these errors must be relatively large. At the same time in the close range my camera shows correct focus! I thought the S focus is based on Contrast Detect AF, therefore it should be pretty accurate in most bright situation. As far es I know the S2/006 uses phase detection AF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpk Posted January 27, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted January 27, 2016 If I manually change focus distance followed by AF focus, the variation will be about 2 meters, mostly front focus. Was this with many lenses the case? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.