hepcat Posted January 22, 2016 Share #1 Posted January 22, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) So I have a 1983-vintage M4-P that I bought a couple of years ago that's in really nice shape. Why an M4-P? Well, I've had M3s, an M2, an M4-2, and a couple of M4s over the years. When I bought my M4-2 (used) in 1981, the latest release was the M4-P. I really wanted one, but I'd just gotten out of the Navy and the family budget just didn't stretch far enough to buy a new one. The local camera shop in La Jolla had an M4-2 used, and even though it was at the top end of what I could afford, I bought it. However, the brochure rack was stacked with M4-P brochures and I grabbed one. I've kept that brochure all these years and still have it. I kept the M4-2 about ten years, but needs change and it got sold. I've had a couple of older M4s since then, but I had a chance to buy a near-mint M4-P a couple of years ago with a rigid Summicron, winder, and MR-4 meter. I sold the accessories, and got the camera body for free! I finally got the M4-P to go with the brochure that's been on my bookshelf all these years. So, after just 33 years, even though I exercise the body regularly, I decided to take it in and see if the shutter speeds are on and/or it needs service. My local camera repairman in Rock Island IL took a look at it today and said "It still has the L was seal! I'm not taking that apart! It'll hurt the value of the body!" I laughed and said...it's just an M4-P... it's not a collector's body, but he was insistent. Finally I said, ok, fine... just check everything over, and if the shutter speeds are on, we'll leave it alone. He was adamant that he didn't want to hurt the future value of the body by removing the wax seal to open the body. I thought it was an interesting reaction. My perspective is that its just a camera and although it's a nice body, it's a user and the seal isn't a big deal. I'm interested to hear if anyone else has thoughts about the subject? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 22, 2016 Posted January 22, 2016 Hi hepcat, Take a look here Took my M4-P in today for service and.... I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
chrism Posted January 22, 2016 Share #2 Posted January 22, 2016 If it's not a rare and collectible body, I'd say function is more important than the wax seal. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted January 22, 2016 Share #3 Posted January 22, 2016 Buyers willing to pay a premium just because of a seal overlook the fact that a seal is a simple thing to fake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 23, 2016 Share #4 Posted January 23, 2016 If it's not a rare and collectible body, I'd say function is more important than the wax seal. Agree absolutely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 23, 2016 Share #5 Posted January 23, 2016 Anyway the wax seal was dropped in 1984 on the M4-P and M6, which goes to show how sentimental Leica were about it. So yes, you are better having a working camera than an ornament. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kentishrev Posted January 23, 2016 Share #6 Posted January 23, 2016 Does it make the camera more collectable? Can you sell for a higher price with that as a feature? If so, why not sell, buy another mint M4-P and put the profit by to pay for the increasingly expensive film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 23, 2016 Author Share #7 Posted January 23, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Does it make the camera more collectable? Can you sell for a higher price with that as a feature? If so, why not sell, buy another mint M4-P and put the profit by to pay for the increasingly expensive film. I don't think that ANY M4-P is collectible, honestly, and they likely never will be. They're just a good, workhorse camera IMHO. I am fine with him digging the seal out and working on this one. My repairman was who was hesitant. We agreed that he'd check the shutter speeds and give it a once-over, and if it was OK he wouldn't open it up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share #8 Posted January 25, 2016 Update, Monday 1/25/16 My camera repair shop called and said that all of the shutter speeds are spot-on and that the camera is sound... so the thirty-three year old grease stays in place, and I'll keep using it. It apparently pays to exercise your gear every so often... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Henry Posted January 25, 2016 Share #9 Posted January 25, 2016 HC , many contributors in "I like film" in "Other" shoot with the M4-P. It's a good camera. If you have time please look at this thread and you are welcome http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/page-507 The next step is print with an enlarger Congratulations and good photos "Film is not dead" and it's not a "sacrilege" when you shoot film Best Henry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted January 25, 2016 Share #10 Posted January 25, 2016 Congrats .......glad it all worked out w/o the seal being broken. Agree with all above, rather have a working camera than a collectors piece. Curious as to why you traded out of the M4 for the M4-P? Do you find flaring an issue with the M4-P viewfinder? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abram Posted January 25, 2016 Share #11 Posted January 25, 2016 I recently sold my own M4-P but it too was in extremely nice condition. It was an Everest model so it had a nifty little stamp on top to signify a Canadian expedition to Mt. Everest, which is all fine and well, but the reality is that it was a wonderful camera to actually USE. I passed it along as it was far cleaner than my MP, and I didn't need to keep two film bodies around. I found that the RF patch would flare, but it wasn't horrendous, it was pretty easy to work around in my opinion. It was kind of funny when I sold it, within two minutes of me listing it, I had a buyer, so I guess that little Everest stamp was something special (I think it was just because it was so clean and had an earlier brass top, and the "preferable" frame lines. That and I was only asking what I paid for it so it was a very fair price). Anyways, I love your story hepcat! That is SO cool to me that you kept that brochure and after all those years you were able to get the camera to go with it. The reason it resonates with me is that I almost was able to do the same thing! 12 years ago when I first experienced a Leica and first handled an MP I knew it was something I would someday own. I too kept the brochure for the MP but I'm afraid it was lost during one of my moves in the last decade. I keep hoping I'll find that brochure one day tucked away somewhere, because it took me 12 years, but I finally got one for myself. Thanks for sharing your story Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 25, 2016 Author Share #12 Posted January 25, 2016 Congrats .......glad it all worked out w/o the seal being broken. Agree with all above, rather have a working camera than a collectors piece. Curious as to why you traded out of the M4 for the M4-P? Do you find flaring an issue with the M4-P viewfinder? I didn't exactly "trade out" the M4 for the M4-P. There were several years (about ten) in between them. I sold my last M4 kit when I went digital with Olympus. The M8 may have been in development then, but there was no indication that Leica was ever going to build digital then... and I'm a semi-retired "working" commercial photographer and needed to go digital. I don't think that ANY M4-P is ever going to attain collector's status, so I'm not worried about it in the least, but it's good to know the camera is still working properly, and all is still ship-shape with it. Finder flare? Honestly even after shooting Leica for the better part of thirty of the past forty years, the biggest issue I have with the finder is covering the rangefinder patch with my fumble fingers, or using a lens and hood that blocks out a quarter of the lower right of the finder. The flare is nothing, IMHO. Maybe someday if I ever do have the camera overhauled, I'll have Sherry install the MP part... just to have it... maybe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted January 25, 2016 Share #13 Posted January 25, 2016 Heya hepcat! I had three M4-Ps over the years, they were my favorite M film body until I acquired my current M4-2. (Why do I prefer the M4-2? Mine is an early one, which still has the M4 optics in the viewfinder. No focusing patch flare at all, and I prefer the simpler viewfinder with just 35/50/90/135 frame lines. Later M4-2 and the M4-P, M6, etc, included the small change that brightened up the frame lines but induced more flare in the focusing patch.) Be that as it may, I'm in full agreement with you: the M4-2 and M4-P are just good, solid cameras. Collectibles ... no. I bought this one in 2012 for $700, paid another $100 to have the viewfinder/rangefinder dismantled, cleaned, collimated, and calibrated. I just use it. I know the shutter is slightly off at 1/1000 second (a little fast at one end, a little slow at the other, by about a third of a stop, about a sixth of a stop at 1/500...) and someday I'll have it cleaned and recalibrated, but there' s no rush. This camera isn't going away any time soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share #14 Posted January 26, 2016 Heya hepcat! I had three M4-Ps over the years, they were my favorite M film body until I acquired my current M4-2. (Why do I prefer the M4-2? Mine is an early one, which still has the M4 optics in the viewfinder. No focusing patch flare at all, and I prefer the simpler viewfinder with just 35/50/90/135 frame lines. Later M4-2 and the M4-P, M6, etc, included the small change that brightened up the frame lines but induced more flare in the focusing patch.) Be that as it may, I'm in full agreement with you: the M4-2 and M4-P are just good, solid cameras. Collectibles ... no. I bought this one in 2012 for $700, paid another $100 to have the viewfinder/rangefinder dismantled, cleaned, collimated, and calibrated. I just use it. I know the shutter is slightly off at 1/1000 second (a little fast at one end, a little slow at the other, by about a third of a stop, about a sixth of a stop at 1/500...) and someday I'll have it cleaned and recalibrated, but there' s no rush. This camera isn't going away any time soon. I went to the shop and retrieved my M4-P body. The repairman said that 1/1000th is slightly off, but still in spec. The rest of the speeds are spot on with the marked speed. It cost me a whopping $18.50 USD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted January 26, 2016 Share #15 Posted January 26, 2016 Worry about viewfinder flare with both the M4-P (and M6) is overdone. If it was the only camera you had you'd soon work around it, but whenever people have a wider choice little niggles get reported as as major faults. In terms of modern use the 28mm frameline more than makes up for a bit of flare once in a blue moon. Mine is in the last 1000, with flush windows and single sync socket, and they are marginally more expensive than the early ones if the seller knows what they have, but not many people know of the differences. Of the normal non-commemorative M4-P it is the rare silver version of the late model that is collectible, but that doesn't necessarily make it expensive. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 26, 2016 Author Share #16 Posted January 26, 2016 Thanks, Steve. Mine is the flush-window magnesium topped, two-sync post run-of-the-mill, 1983 production version. Nothing collectible about it at all, but it's a great camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoresteen Posted January 28, 2016 Share #17 Posted January 28, 2016 I had the M-6 viewfinder flare mod done to my M4-P and it was well worth it. My M4-P was used by Elvis at his last concert and is very rare..... not. Just get it serviced and cleaned. Even though the speeds are on, the film advance and viewfinder need service as well. If the speeds are on but the viewfinder focus is off, all you get is a perfectly exposed blur. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted January 28, 2016 Author Share #18 Posted January 28, 2016 I had the M-6 viewfinder flare mod done to my M4-P and it was well worth it. My M4-P was used by Elvis at his last concert and is very rare..... not. Just get it serviced and cleaned. Even though the speeds are on, the film advance and viewfinder need service as well. If the speeds are on but the viewfinder focus is off, all you get is a perfectly exposed blur. Elvis indeed! lol!!! I'm still thinking about having the viewfinder mod done too. But for now it's ok. BTW, those perfectly exposed blurs are called "bokeh" around here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wpm Posted February 3, 2016 Share #19 Posted February 3, 2016 Okay, so a quick question with thoughts and opinions welcome. I came across an M4-P from 1982 for a decent price. The problem is that the windows are hazy and it doesn't focus to infinity. For me, it would be a serious problem for me. I think it would drive me nuts as is. So, a trusted repair person says a CLA is in order and he can replace the windows with ones with better coatings. The cost puts me up with other used ones and close to some M-6's. Do any of you think it's worth doing and getting a nicely refreshed M4-P rather than another model? Seems like I may know the answer, but I'd like some thoughts. I like the idea of no batteries and no meter, although the silver chrome M-6 ttl I own works well enough too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hepcat Posted February 3, 2016 Author Share #20 Posted February 3, 2016 Okay, so a quick question with thoughts and opinions welcome. I came across an M4-P from 1982 for a decent price. The problem is that the windows are hazy and it doesn't focus to infinity. For me, it would be a serious problem for me. I think it would drive me nuts as is. So, a trusted repair person says a CLA is in order and he can replace the windows with ones with better coatings. The cost puts me up with other used ones and close to some M-6's. Do any of you think it's worth doing and getting a nicely refreshed M4-P rather than another model? Seems like I may know the answer, but I'd like some thoughts. I like the idea of no batteries and no meter, although the silver chrome M-6 ttl I own works well enough too. A freshly overhauled and properly working anything is preferable to buying a camera with an unknown history and relying on it. I'm a fan of the M4, and specifically the M4-P. I'd say go for it... have the overhaul done, and you'll have a camera that'll last you another thirty to forty years before it needs another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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