Wayne Posted December 23, 2015 Share #1 Posted December 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Please accept my apology if this has been answered. I have honestly tried to search for the information and not been able to find it. I have seen Leica cameras advertised as the IID model that do have an adjustable rangefinder, and others that do not any means of adjusting the rangefinder. Are there any hard, fast rules on this, or is it just different variations of the same camera. The IID is the camera I am considering purchasing next. Thanks Wayne Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Hi Wayne, Take a look here Leica IId question. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
doubice Posted December 23, 2015 Share #2 Posted December 23, 2015 Hi Wayne, First of all - small clarification about Leica ‘IID’. There never was a Leica IID model per se. There was a model II (official factory designation) and there was a model D (US market designation) - both are identical cameras. If by ‘adjustable rangefinder’ you mean a rangefinder which had a diopter adjustment, the model II did not have it. The first Leica which had this feature was model III (or F in the US market). However - and this is where the confusion may originate, Leitz used to offer upgrades to existing cameras. So - a model II could easily have been converted to a model III, whilst retaining the same serial number. Many sellers who are not familiar with Leica, simply look up their camera’s serial number (lists are available on-line) and if it identifies the camera as a model II, they describe it as such. The model II could have been factory converted even to model IIIf (to add to confusion - this is the official designation for the model by the factory and in the US market….), produced during the early to mid 1950’s. Those cameras would have the same features as the ones they were converted to but, retained their original serial number. So a Leica model II from mid-1930’s with a serial number in the 150,000 range could have the same features as a camera produced during the 1950’s. If correctly described, such a camera should be referred to as a Leica model II, converted to model IIIf. To answer your question though, a ‘real’ model II did not have a diopter adjustment…. ;-) Cheers, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted December 23, 2015 Thank you for the clarity on this. Yes, I was referring to the diopter adjustment. To add to my confusion, I notice that some of the cameras, advertised as IID, and having the diopter adjutment, have five digit serial numbers. I guess these are all cameras that have been upgraded. In almost all cases, the selling price of these cameras is considerably less than the cameras that have not been upgraded. I guess, in truth, my goal is not so much to aquire a pristine collectible camera, but to own an older black Barnack. Were the upgrades all performed in Germany, or were they done locally? Are the upgraded cameras, generally, as reliable, i.e. as precisely fitted, as original and unaltered models produced by the factory? Thanks again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 23, 2015 Share #4 Posted December 23, 2015 Most upgrades were done by Leica but there is also some evidence of 'local craftsmen' at work. I have never seen any records of which cameras were upgraded by Leica. In the world of Leica collection, the value of a non upgraded camera will always be higher than that of an upgraded camera in the same condition. That does not mean though that the upgraded camera will be a 'bad camera' and, indeed, from a user point of view it may indeed be a 'better camera'. There is, generally, no reason to believe that an upgraded camera will be any less reliable than one in original condition unless some 'local craftsman' has done a 'botched' job. A reliable dealer or auction house should spot such work in advance of the 'point of sale'. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted December 23, 2015 Share #5 Posted December 23, 2015 My II (98xxx) was upgraded to a III, now, despite a five digit SN, I think of it as a III. It terms of usability, those slow speeds are nice, and the strap lugs make sense. Black is Black.....and yes I understand "collectors mentality" but from a user viewpoint the fact it's a factory upgrade matters not. I've had this camera out in public, and more than once I've had to convince civilians its NOT some brand new techno/retro camera! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumolux Posted December 23, 2015 Share #6 Posted December 23, 2015 To add to my confusion, I notice that some of the cameras, advertised as IID, and having the diopter adjutment, have five digit serial numbers. I guess these are all cameras that have been upgraded. In almost all cases, the selling price of these cameras is considerably less than the cameras that have not been upgraded. I am also often confused by pricing of LTM cameras - but in the opposite direction, as what I am seeing are the modified cameras in general going for higher prices than the original versions at many auctions and official Leica dealers. Can't quite make heads or tails of it.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted December 23, 2015 Share #7 Posted December 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I think black cameras in general outpace chrome cameras of the same model. If you wear glasses you'll appreciate the diopter adjustment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 23, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 23, 2015 I am also often confused by pricing of LTM cameras - but in the opposite direction, as what I am seeing are the modified cameras in general going for higher prices than the original versions at many auctions and official Leica dealers. Can't quite make heads or tails of it.... I'd like to see some examples of this. In general, cameras in original condition will sell for more than upgraded or modified cameras, of the same standard, in the collector market. In the user market, things may be somewhat different but not that much. A user will often prefer a modified or upgraded camera but to a collector original condition is the 'holy grail'. Now as for those of us who are both collectors and users, we just do what suits us! William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambro51 Posted December 23, 2015 Share #9 Posted December 23, 2015 Have cameras been "regressed"? Have As became IIs then rebuilt as an A? Would/Did Leitz ever do this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted December 23, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 23, 2015 The model II could have been factory converted even to model IIIf (to add to confusion - this is the official designation for the model by the factory and in the US market….), produced during the early to mid 1950’s. Those cameras would have the same features as the ones they were converted to but, retained their original serial number. So a Leica model II from mid-1930’s with a serial number in the 150,000 range could have the same features as a camera produced during the 1950’s. If correctly described, such a camera should be referred to as a Leica model II, converted to model IIIf. small correction - Leica did not offer upgrade of II Model D into IIIf. However an upgrade to II sync or IIIa sync was possible. Besides flash sync these upgrades had as well some features of an IIIc, IIIf (like improved curtain brake). But they were never "fully" IIIf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted December 23, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 23, 2015 I do have a IIIf with a IIIa serial number from about 1936, so such "upgrades" did happen, even though it meant new body, top and bottom covers, and just about everything. It's been suggested that maybe the IIIa was sent in for repair, but proved beyond help. But I've heard of other IIIf cameras with similar old model serial numbers. I know the IIIg product announcement in Leica Photography (US magazine) specifically announced that older models could not be upgraded to IIIg - so maybe that is when the practice stopped. Keeping the same serial number would have significant savings on return customs and such, besides the good will from doing customers a favor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted December 23, 2015 Share #12 Posted December 23, 2015 small correction - Leica did not offer upgrade of II Model D into IIIf. However an upgrade to II sync or IIIa sync was possible. Besides flash sync these upgrades had as well some features of an IIIc, IIIf (like improved curtain brake). But they were never "fully" IIIf Yes, a 'full' upgrade into a IIIf was of course not possible, due to among other things, the different size of the bodies. What I was referring to were IIIf features of the camera - I have seen model II factory conversions with black sync dials, advance knobs with DIN/ASA reminders etc. Cheers, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted December 23, 2015 Share #13 Posted December 23, 2015 ...." I know the IIIg product announcement in Leica Photography (US magazine) specifically announced that older models could not be upgraded to IIIg - so maybe that is when the practice stopped "....... Yes, the IIIg was an entirely different camera so conversions even from its IIIf predecessor would have been impossible. One could convert a Ig into a IIIg though... ;-) Cheers, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubice Posted December 23, 2015 Share #14 Posted December 23, 2015 Have cameras been "regressed"? Have As became IIs then rebuilt as an A? Would/Did Leitz ever do this? No - it would not have made any sense for the camera owner. Why convert a camera with a coupled rangefinder into one without one? Best, Jan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted December 23, 2015 Share #15 Posted December 23, 2015 ..if interesting for anyone... upgrade possibilities. Pricing is in DM (Deutsch Mark) as of 1953, so pre- IIIg conversion prices.pdf Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted December 23, 2015 Share #16 Posted December 23, 2015 Taking the subject back 15 years from Jerzy's post, here is the relevant part in the 1938 Leica General Catalogue. At that time, the Standard could be converted to a Model III or Model IIIa and the Model II could be converted to a Model IIIa and, I think, the III (there may be a misprint as two different prices are quoted for conversion of the II). On the other hand, the III could not be converted to a IIIa, for some reason which is not obvious. No existing model could be converted to the Model IIIb. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It would appear, therefore, that there were always some restrictions in the Leica conversion program. The 1938 restrictions may have changed over time, though, as new models and techniques appeared. William Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! It would appear, therefore, that there were always some restrictions in the Leica conversion program. The 1938 restrictions may have changed over time, though, as new models and techniques appeared. William ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254713-leica-iid-question/?do=findComment&comment=2954859'>More sharing options...
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