ramarren Posted December 21, 2015 Share #1 Posted December 21, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have been thinking of what it will take to capture Minox negatives with the Leica SL. Minox negatives are 8x11mm in size, so high magnification—beyond 1:1—is essential to get a nice, high pixel count. Also, because Minox film typically has a 1-3mm curvature when dry, you need enough DoF to capture clean, sharp images edge to edge. I have the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm as well as 2x Extender-R and Macro Adapter R (basically, an aperture coupled extension tube). Normally, I wouldn't use them together because the couplings can cause inaccuracies on Leica R SLRs when you're using two adapters like this, but on the SL which ignores all the mechanical couplings, that's not a concern. So I fitted them all together, SL+Macro Adapter R+2x Extender-R+Macro-Elmarit-R 60, set the lens to maximum extension, and called upon the services of my friendly model: Focusing carefully, I then made three exposures @ f/2.8: @ f/5.6 @ f/11 To check DoF and resulting magnification, I added a ruler: Looking at the mm scale, this setup is going to result in about a 1.9:1 magnification ... I really want closer to 3:1. Hmm. I'll need more macro tubes... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 21, 2015 Posted December 21, 2015 Hi ramarren, Take a look here A little macro fun. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 23, 2015 Share #2 Posted December 23, 2015 Using a 50mm Summicron R with an Elpro Viib or Elpro 2 achromatic c/u lens (both are 4.92 diopter … but for the Mk I and Mk 2 50/2 R lenses respectively ) plus the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows (usually very $£€reasonably priced these days) the potential magnifications at 5.6cm to 2.4cm lens to subject distances are 1.07:1 to 3.16:1. Using the 60mm Elmarit with the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows will enable a magnification of 2.8:1 … and adding the Macro Adaptor R will enable 3.3:1 As per Günter Osterloh's 'Applied Leica Technique' when used on an R film camera. The advantage of using the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows is that it has a tripod mount and a built in focusing rack - making a very stable and balanced set-up. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share #3 Posted December 23, 2015 Very useful information! My worry with bellows units on digital cameras is dust in the bellows getting on the sensor. They're hard to keep clean and dust free inside. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 23, 2015 Share #4 Posted December 23, 2015 Very useful information! My worry with bellows units on digital cameras is dust in the bellows getting on the sensor. They're hard to keep clean and dust free inside. There is a risk but similar risk applies to the various tubes used. Photographic bellows are not used like a concertina and a thorough blast at maximum extension with a rocket blower or similar before use would probably eliminate any dust. Used gently they should be OK. I've not experienced any dust problems using various bellows with my Leica T. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted December 23, 2015 Share #5 Posted December 23, 2015 I love the Macro R lenses on the SL. Ive been shooting a lot with the 100mm + Adapter (front adapter for 100mm). Based on many great images in the forum I also just ordered a 60mm Macro + Macro Adapter...it arrives next week. These are with natural light and handheld, Ive also shot quite a few with strobes. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254626-a-little-macro-fun/?do=findComment&comment=2954670'>More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 23, 2015 Share #6 Posted December 23, 2015 Using a 50mm Summicron R with an Elpro Viib VIb or Elpro 2 achromatic c/u lens (both are 4.92 diopter … but for the Mk I and Mk 2 50/2 R lenses respectively ) plus the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows (usually very $£€reasonably priced these days) the potential magnifications at 5.6cm to 2.4cm lens to subject distances are 1.07:1 to 3.16:1. Using the 60mm Elmarit with the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows will enable a magnification of 2.8:1 … and adding the Macro Adaptor R will enable 3.3:1 As per Günter Osterloh's 'Applied Leica Technique' when used on an R film camera. The advantage of using the Leitz R Universal Focusing Bellows is that it has a tripod mount and a built in focusing rack - making a very stable and balanced set-up. dunk Apologies … that should read ' … Elpro VIb …' Günter Osterloh's 'Applied Leica Technique' (for the Leica R) includes a mine of information ref R lens' close-up possibilities dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #7 Posted December 24, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) There is a risk but similar risk applies to the various tubes used. Photographic bellows are not used like a concertina and a thorough blast at maximum extension with a rocket blower or similar before use would probably eliminate any dust. Used gently they should be OK. I've not experienced any dust problems using various bellows with my Leica T. dunk Tubes are a bit easier to clean and keep clean. But no matter. What I find hunting around for Leica Universal Focusing Bellows R is an bellows unit with product number 16860. Is it safe to assume that this will be fully compatible with the Leicaflex SL, R8, and R Adapter M on the camera side, and the 3-cam 50, 60, 90, and 135 lenses on the lens side? They seem to run from US$65 and up, some in remarkably nice looking condition for under US$100. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 24, 2015 Share #8 Posted December 24, 2015 Depends what you mean by 'fully compatible' … the bellows will fit on the camera side including fitting to my Novoflex R to M adaptor - so it should fit your Leica R to M adaptor - but it's essentially a manual metering accessory when used with an R camera. I have not used the bellows with a Leicaflex SL but manual metering with an SL or SL2 should be possible. The lens diaphragm is preset manually but the bellows' front stop down mechanisms enable focusing at full aperture, and then via its stop down control or via a cable release, at the set aperture for metering purposes. My lenses are all triple cam; all can be stopped down and then opened up to full aperture again by the bellows' front stop down button and lever. I do not have any "'R' cam only" lenses. There is no direct linkage from the camera to the lens diaphragm - it's not an auto bellows - but could be deemed semi-auto if used with a double cable release. When the bellows is used with my Leica T the camera is used in aperture priority … using the R to M and M to T adaptors. When using the bellows with my R9/DMR the camera is set to manual metering and the aperture and shutter speed 'juggled' to obtain the correct exposure via the viewfinder's exposure index. Personally I find the Universal Bellows R a very elegant and easy to use close-up accessory. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #9 Posted December 24, 2015 That's what I needed to know, thanks dunk! Time to punch a button... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted December 24, 2015 Share #10 Posted December 24, 2015 Not the same as the bellows extension, but are you aware Leica made an adapter specifically for each of the two macros? For the 100mm it screws on the front of the lens and converts it from 2:1 to 1:1 For the 60mm it goes behind the lens. Both include optics, not just extension tubes. Also check out page 30 of this: http://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_accessory_guide.pdf Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254626-a-little-macro-fun/?do=findComment&comment=2955322'>More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 24, 2015 Share #11 Posted December 24, 2015 Not the same as the bellows extension, but are you aware Leica made an adapter specifically for each of the two macros? For the 100mm it screws on the front of the lens and converts it from 2:1 to 1:1 For the 60mm it goes behind the lens. Both include optics, not just extension tubes. Also check out page 30 of this: http://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_accessory_guide.pdf The front mounting Elpro only fits the 100/2.8 Apo Macro and actually increases the magnification from half life size to just over life size … i.e. from 1:2 to 1.1:1 … the extra 0.1 enabling full frame copying of a mounted and thus slightly cropped transparency. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted December 24, 2015 Share #12 Posted December 24, 2015 If the Leica R bellows prove difficult to find then you might consider the "Novoflex for Leica R camera" bellows, which is also superbly built, has dual rack runners for added stability and square bellows compared to the Leica's octagonal/hexagonal(?) ones. Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted December 24, 2015 Not the same as the bellows extension, but are you aware Leica made an adapter specifically for each of the two macros? For the 100mm it screws on the front of the lens and converts it from 2:1 to 1:1 For the 60mm it goes behind the lens. Both include optics, not just extension tubes. Also check out page 30 of this: http://www.cameramanuals.org/leica_pdf/leica_accessory_guide.pdf I have the Macro Adapter-R 14256 listed in that book. It's just a coupled extension tube and takes the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm from 1:2 to approximately 1:1 magnification. No optics in it; usable with any lens far as I can tell. I also have an older set of extension rings (14139, I believe) but some 3-cam lenses cannot fit it. The bellows is likely the right choice because I'm looking to get close to 3:1 macro with the 60mm for my Minox negative copying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #14 Posted December 24, 2015 If the Leica R bellows prove difficult to find then you might consider the "Novoflex for Leica R camera" bellows, which is also superbly built, has dual rack runners for added stability and square bellows compared to the Leica's octagonal/hexagonal(?) ones. I found several Leica Universal Focusing Bellows R available, and at reasonable prices, but thank you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted December 24, 2015 Share #15 Posted December 24, 2015 The disadvantage of the Leica Universal Focusing Bellows R is that it's not possible to attach a slide copier to the front. Other types of bellows e.g. Canon FD Autobellows have a slide copying accessory which makes the process so much easier. And some manufactures offered a macro copy stand e.g. the Olympus VST-1 with a perfectly parallel (to the camera image plane) subject stage. Slide copiers and macro stands could possibly be adapted to the Leica bellows and could then be used with the special GePe 5x5 6701 'Minox 8x11' slide mounts. EDIT: Apologies - just realised you're copying Minox negatives - not Minox slides. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share #16 Posted December 24, 2015 The disadvantage of the Leica Universal Focusing Bellows R is that it's not possible to attach a slide copier to the front. Other types of bellows e.g. Canon FD Autobellows have a slide copying accessory which makes the process so much easier. And some manufactures offered a macro copy stand e.g. the Olympus VST-1 with a perfectly parallel (to the camera image plane) subject stage. Slide copiers and macro stands could possibly be adapted to the Leica bellows and could then be used with the special GePe 5x5 6701 'Minox 8x11' slide mounts. EDIT: Apologies - just realised you're copying Minox negatives - not Minox slides. A 60->52mm step down ring and a Nikon E-S1 slide copying attachment on the Macro-Elmarit-R 60mm would do the job for 35mm slides nicely, I suspect, along with the Macro Adapter R. No need for a bellows for slide copying. But I normally just use a film scanner for 35mm format film anyway. Minox format negatives with a 4000 ppi scanner only return a 2.2 Mpixel image. I want to get up near 20 ... :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 25, 2015 Share #17 Posted December 25, 2015 Minox format negatives with a 4000 ppi scanner only return a 2.2 Mpixel image. I want to get up near 20 ... :-) Is there really that much information to be extracted from a negative with an area of 80 mm^2? How many grains of silver would there be in a single image? scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share #18 Posted December 25, 2015 Is there really that much information to be extracted from a negative with an area of 80 mm^2? How many grains of silver would there be in a single image? Plenty Minox C, APX25 scanned with Panasonic L1 + ZD 35mm f/3.5 + EC-14 And that's not even a particularly sharp one. The scan in that instance was about 6 Mpixel original. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott kirkpatrick Posted December 25, 2015 Share #19 Posted December 25, 2015 That looks pretty nice. I imagine going anywhere above 5-6 MPx you'll have a graininess that will complement the images. Merry Christmas, scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted December 25, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted December 25, 2015 There comes a point where you're simply imaging the grain more clearly, there are no further image details to be extracted. With APX50 film, that's up around 16 to 20 MPixels from my experience. However, having that additional grain detail allows more image processing capability by down-sampling to get smoother and cleaner results without losing detail. It really is amazing what can be extracted from tiny bits of film. A Happy Holiday to you too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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