asiafish Posted December 23, 2015 Author Share #41 Posted December 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Thank you all for the great discussion. At this time I think I will hold off on the S 006 as I don't print large enough, often enough to get my money's worth. Faster glass for my M will get me similarly narrow depth of field, but will also be useful in my travel as well as my portrait photography. Of course, the right price and looking through that viewfinder again might change my mind. Must resist. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted December 23, 2015 Posted December 23, 2015 Hi asiafish, Take a look here To S or not to S. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
hoppyman Posted December 29, 2015 Share #42 Posted December 29, 2015 One new question that has come up after discussing the S 006. Would an S2 give me essentially the same thing for what I would it for (portraits and static work)? That really comes down to what you have to pay for an S2 or Typ 006 I guess. The sensor is the same. As far as image quality the results would be the same were you to shoot with the two side by side. Nevertheless there were a number of feature improvements in the operation of the camera with the later model. If you were buying a discounted new body of course you get the full warranty. I think I mentioned that I shot about 13000 frames with my S2 before now having the Typ 007. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted January 7, 2016 Share #43 Posted January 7, 2016 The most compelling reason to get the S2 or the S for that matter is the amazing IQ. This is obvious whether you make 8x10 or 40x50 prints... I had had S cameras since 2010 as well as the different Ms and there is no comparison... Now that you can get a second hand S2 for a fraction of the original cost, I encourage you to take the plunge. You will not regret it. Albert Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/254426-to-s-or-not-to-s/?do=findComment&comment=2964122'>More sharing options...
Agent M10 Posted January 7, 2016 Share #44 Posted January 7, 2016 I say go big or go home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliberate1 Posted January 7, 2016 Share #45 Posted January 7, 2016 I say go big or go home. And I say, Superman did not have an M or and SL on his chest. And for my next non sequitur.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted January 20, 2016 Share #46 Posted January 20, 2016 I do use the S2 + 35 + 70 and assorted Contax lenses occasionally these days. I also have a Nikon DSLR system with current lenses that actually reflect similar focal lengths to the S system I use and I did the occasional comparison in actual use.I believe you can get something very similar to the Nikon D800E and f1.4 primes from Canon.When comparing the Nikon with the Leica S2 you gain with the S2:- acuity and detail even over the similar resolution sensor specs- you gain a big chunk in tonality (the S2 simply murders any current 35mm camera in tones - even slightly edging the magnificent MM)- you gain the best finder ever made into a SLR- you gain the best ergonomics and user interface ever made into any SLR- worlds finest lenses with highest possible performance p e r i o d (yes, some of the Nikon lenses truly perform astonishingly good into the corners, in the wildest of lighting conditions, even on a D800 body, they are not as consistently flawless as the Leica S glass on a S2 though- flash flexibility with CS lenses (this is more aimed towards using the system in a studio setup, don't think of the luddite Metz flash as anywhere near as flexible as contemporary Nikon or Canon speed-lights)- the worlds greatest battery system and double charger (if you have a Leica S you MUST buy the table top double charger which is simply the very best battery charger of any camera system - Nikon's double charger for the Dx series bodies is almost as good but lacks the ease of use and slick design)you loose:- focussing speed and flexibility (seriously, think of the S system as a manual focus system with a very healthy auto focus helper function, which works super precise for still and foreseeably moving subjects, it is far, far far off from the lighting fast performance of pro 35 mm bodies from Canon and Nikon or even the telepathy fast manual focus of a Leica M with 35 or 50mm lens)- ISO performance (I max out the S2 natively at ISO 640, if I must have higher sensitivity, I actually shoot at ISO 320 and push the files one, two or at the very most three stops further - you loose massively dynamic range, tonality and detail as can be expected - it behaves very similar to the M9 sensor in these respects but I find I use the S2 at about 1 to 1 1/2 stop lower ISO generally)- very fast and flexible lenses (you need f1.4 and high ISO for certain conditions? Forget about medium format, even the very fast Leica S lenses will not help much here to gain exposure - DOF (don't be tricked about this one - you really need a lot of f stop to gain the DOF you are used to from 35mm and you will be constantly running out of light)- in weight and size even over bulky Canon pr Nikon systems, yes the S2 body doesn't look that much bigger than the D800E body - you have to look twice to see the discreet size differences, the S2 is heavier too, the lenses though couldn't be more different (S lenses being very dense and consistently larger than 35mm lenses as to be expected)- hand-hold-ability in very slow shutter speeds (as if the lower ISO and needed aperture for DOF would not be limiting enough already) - you really have to shoot at constantly higher speeds to juice that high res sensors detail - same rules apply as when using other medium format gear - there are also no VR lenses (vibration reduction) with he Leica S system (although the actual benefit with the 35mm systems is often over rated and often misunderstood due to successful marketing)Those are some quick points off the top of my head. Let me mention:- I love the S system for the use you describe (take it along for a travel system to a sole place) I usually do this once a year to document family gatherings and walk around, exploring town- I like the files from the S2 above any other files (maybe only competition being the Leica MM, which I use as my main camera since it's introduction)- the Nikon D800E (or equivalent Canon) may match or exceed the old Leica S2 in many technical specs, better files they produce not though, although they do have their strengths in very different tasks- you will see certain benefits even when printing only at the sizes you mention but they might not be as mind-blowing as you wish for (considering the immense difference in costs)- expect the S system to depreciate as ANY other digital system, meaning you WILL take a substantial hit, so think carefully about this aspectTo me the Leica S excels at this:portrait - young woman by teknopunk.com, on Flickrand the Nikon / Canon at this:F1 GP - Shanghai 2015 - Mercedes by teknopunk.com, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Warwick Posted January 20, 2016 Share #47 Posted January 20, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) menos | M6, that is a great and realistic summary indeed. Thanks so much for it. I have done some non-scientific comps recently by shooting the same street with an S-E (outside of a shop) and with my M240. I have also used a D 800. I agree with your findings. Resolution (fine detail capture) is just a very small difference if one sizes both cameras' images to be in line with their megapixel equivalents - perhaps no major surprise, and if looking at small crops on a screen especially, the differences in terms of "fine detail" might not be huge. But otherwise, "acuity" is much better with the S (better lenses?) - the S images look more tangible, much closer, as though the M had a piece of plastic in front of it that is removing the M images' clarity - and the tonality / smoothness / depth in terms of 3d'ness is miles ahead from the S versus the M in big prints. M images look much flatter vs the S, regardless of what I do in PS or C1. The S images have a voluptuousness about them, and don't look stressed when I resample - the files expand to huge sizes much better than off 35mm FF. And the colors off the S are bang on. But it comes with other issues (you run out of light quickly with an S, given weaker high ISO, need for fast shutter speeds, slower lenses, mirror bounce). ISO 400 seemed pretty useable though. I haven't done it, but I can imagine that base ISO, tripod and mirror up on the S would create an amazing image compared to my 1/125 handheld images ..... I bet I'm throwing a lot of resolution advantages away, AND YET, I'm still majorly impressed by what I've seen off the S (and I've done crops to simulate 50" and 60" wide prints via a London pro lab to get a proper feel of what the S can do .....) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted January 20, 2016 Share #48 Posted January 20, 2016 Having both S(S2, S006) and Nikon(D810). Good about S: View Finder: I agree it is great Sensor: mainly color and tone without extensive PP, best of any camera I ever used. I don't have other MFormat experience though. Lens rendering: my 35 and 70 share very similar house rendering I found very pleasing. one of best here. Bad: AF: it doesn't do justice for its 36M sensor. slow and inconsistent. AF-C is a joke. Shutter: significant delay and sloppy compare to Modern Canikon. Sensor: not very usable after ISO400 (relative to its peak performance, you better get a APS-c from any manufacture here to get better and make sure never under exposure your shot at high ISO) Lens CA: both show extensive CA for the price. Manual focusing: The lens design is horrible here, the focus throw is extreme short, and too further away from camera body make MF awkward. Especially for tracking moving subject like people. A huge waste for such a beautiful VF. and huge negative for such sloppy AF camera. I tried 007. It improves the shutter and AF but not to the point I want upgrade. I am uncertain about its color performance, which is big reason I am still with S. In term of lens performance, I have to say OTUS55/85 and Zeiss APO135 are step above for sheer optic performance. Faster, no CA and sharper WO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted January 21, 2016 Share #49 Posted January 21, 2016 Since the Otuses supposedly cover more than 35mm ff, they could with some drastic surgery be adapted to the S perhaps. Mirror shave anybody? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted January 21, 2016 Share #50 Posted January 21, 2016 Unlikely, it is about 280mm before R lenses work at infinity on the S system. Fine if you only want to shoot at close distances, infinity on lens may give you a head and shoulders shot ;-) john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted January 21, 2016 Share #51 Posted January 21, 2016 Hence infinity adjustment, drastic surgery, and mirror shave I seem to remember the otus 55 rear elemenr being very close to sensor Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted January 21, 2016 Share #52 Posted January 21, 2016 Seriously though if zeiss adjusted the otus a little to work with leica s theyd be quite appealing, even if mf only Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZHNL Posted January 21, 2016 Share #53 Posted January 21, 2016 Since the Otuses supposedly cover more than 35mm ff, they could with some drastic surgery be adapted to the S perhaps. Mirror shave anybody? Alan, that will be a dream for me to have high performance fast manual glass for Leica S. The sensor is really good for what is good at. I guess most professional would not care though. For landscape and anything not moving, I am fine with manual focus with stock lens. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted January 22, 2016 Share #54 Posted January 22, 2016 Without intend of being impolite, I very much question the validity of a comment as to comparing a manual focus 35mm lens with the Leica S lenses, commenting how inferior the manual focus application of the S lenses is. In my experience the Leica S lenses are second to none in terms of optical performance. Sure there are wonder lenses with less functionality and fitting only other systems, incompatible with the Leica S but what exactly does this matter in comparing it with a Leica S ? I do use among others a 58/1.2 Noct-Nikkor on my D800E. For this purpose (and some of the other fantastic manual focus classic Nikkor lenses) I have adapted a highly sensitive full matte focussing screen to the D800E which does improve manual focussing of lenses with such fast apertures a lot. With that screen (the very best solution one can use to manually focus on a 35mm DSLR with very fast lenses I might add), I still have immense difficulty to nail focus at apertures faster than f1.4 with ANYTHING moving faster than at snail speed. The Leica S finder in combination with Leica's manual focus screen is second to none in terms of precision and clarity. It compares favorable to the late Rolleiflex screen, to the latest Rollei (6000 series) screen in my super-charged Exakta 66, to the excellent latest Hasselblad V screen in my 203F or anything else I had the joy of peering through. Manual focus with the Leica S is as good as it gets on a SLR! No manual focus lens on a SLR will become as fast and responsive as a professional grade autofocus lens on an upper tier Canon or Nikon body … ever. The Otus lenses may very well be a great achievement in optical design but in this comparison are very much meaningless, aren't they? We could as well be comparing how much better the 50 Summicron APO a lens is as the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 HC on a H5D - it is as ridiculous a comparison as an Otus 55mm vs the 70/2.5 Summarit on a Leica S, No? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan.y Posted January 22, 2016 Share #55 Posted January 22, 2016 What's the un-meaningless argument here Menos? That it's invalid to say S lenses are ergonomically suboptimal for manual focus because they have great IQ? Or that you love your S a lot and don't want to hear gripes? Regarding the screen, I do wish the S had a highly sensitive matte screen instead of one with a split image circle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted January 22, 2016 Share #56 Posted January 22, 2016 What's the un-meaningless argument here Menos? That it's invalid to say S lenses are ergonomically suboptimal for manual focus because they have great IQ? Or that you love your S a lot and don't want to hear gripes? Regarding the screen, I do wish the S had a highly sensitive matte screen instead of one with a split image circle. "the un-meaningless argument" is the comparison of a 35mm manual focus lens vs a medium format autofocus lens in the department of how well or bad they perform focussing. I do use a S2 for a while and surely am not in love with it - mind you, I am rather critical of it's shortcomings and use it only where it fits in place best. I don't try to bend it into working for something it is not designed for. I second your point about the manual focus screen - I am a full matte screen guy myself and absolutely love the full matte screens in my Nikon F3, Rolleiflex and my digital Nikon SLRs. I find focussing on a full matte screen easier than being distracted by the split screen up center. The Leica S manual focussing screen though (split screen up center or not) is first rate and focussing on the outer matte or via split in center works great (within limitations of manually focussing a SLR, which is always to be less accurate, quick and intuitive as doing with a rangefinder). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliberate1 Posted January 22, 2016 Share #57 Posted January 22, 2016 The Leica S finder in combination with Leica's manual focus screen is second to none in terms of precision and clarity. It compares favorable to the late Rolleiflex screen, to the latest Rollei (6000 series) screen in my super-charged Exakta 66, to the excellent latest Hasselblad V screen in my 203F or anything else I had the joy of peering through. Menos, that is a very fair comparison. My film rig is a Rollei 6008 with that big, beautiful split screen. When I bought my S two months ago, the first accessory I acquired was the split screen. It works wonderfully, especially with the Contax 120mm which has no AF capability. If only Leica would produce a C-like adapter for my Rollei lenses. The idea of using the magnificent Schneider 90mm macro on an S body would be a dream. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
menos I M6 Posted January 22, 2016 Share #58 Posted January 22, 2016 Menos, that is a very fair comparison. My film rig is a Rollei 6008 with that big, beautiful split screen. When I bought my S two months ago, the first accessory I acquired was the split screen. It works wonderfully, especially with the Contax 120mm which has no AF capability. If only Leica would produce a C-like adapter for my Rollei lenses. The idea of using the magnificent Schneider 90mm macro on an S body would be a dream. Now that would be truly fantastic! Some most interesting Schneider lenses have been made in fully electronic Rollei mount and cannot be easily adapted to other systems. I love the 80/2.8 Xenotar which is one of the few exceptions of lenses made in Rollei mount shared outside (in this case in Exakta 66 mount). I fear though that there is little chance that such an adapter will appear :-( Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deliberate1 Posted January 22, 2016 Share #59 Posted January 22, 2016 I fear though that there is little chance that such an adapter will appear :-( Agreed. And I can share with you, from experience, that duct taping the lens to body is a poor substitute for a well-engineered adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted January 22, 2016 Share #60 Posted January 22, 2016 Maybe Leica will release more, I mean we already have the S-Adapter C and S-Adapter H Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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