AAK Posted November 18, 2015 Share #1 Posted November 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm confused! As I look at the new SL, I see a camera that is somewhat larger than the M240, but has (according to some reviews) a great EVF, accepts M lenses with an adapter, has some features like dual card slots which are aimed at professional photographers, and costs just a few hundred dollars more than the M240. Put another way, the major differences in the M240 are the rangefinder, slightly smaller form, and relatively minor cost savings over the SL. I haven't read extensive reviews of how well the M lenses perform on the SL, so maybe there's some real difference there. What puzzles me is where Leica is going with these 2 lines of camera? The SL seems to be their "professional" camera line and one they're investing in by new lens development, but what of the digital Ms, and where do they fit in given that the two lines have very similar price points? Is there a future for the digital Ms? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 18, 2015 Posted November 18, 2015 Hi AAK, Take a look here Product position and future of the M240 with the new SL. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted November 18, 2015 Share #2 Posted November 18, 2015 One has AF, EVF, video and big lenses. The he other is compact and has a rangefinder. I wouldn't assume either is better than the other. They are sisters, both offering fabulous image quality. Priced the same, different functionality. Sisters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 18, 2015 Share #3 Posted November 18, 2015 Actually two have EVF and video...albeit in different forms and suiting different tastes. The M will always be part of Leica's core. As to the future of the company....that story remains to be written. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted November 18, 2015 Share #4 Posted November 18, 2015 They are SO different that I wonder how can you be confused... in case you are in buying mood, choosing one over the other imho is a simple choice : AF and Zooms or not, simply said. Can Leica afford two high level FF systems ? We'll see... to be forced to DROP the SL line after 2-3 years would be a very bad fate for the Company... while the M is, let me say, a "safe niche" ... its typical customers can afford a diluition of product renewal pace, thus allowing Leica to be less stressed on the ROI side... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 18, 2015 Share #5 Posted November 18, 2015 I don't think there is any risk of dropping a camera that has only been released for two days. Pause for thought - Leica continues to make and even release new models of the M film cameras. I don't see the M(240) as being under threat at all. What Leica has done over the last 6 years, though, is move on from rebadged Panasonic digitals to having a reasonably complete digital offering in three formats - 45x30, 36x24 & APS-C, consistent, compatible and complete. There is no reason for all this M owner angst - if everything else fails, you can be sure the last camera Leica will still be making is the M. But, digital is the future and the T, M, SL and S fit perfectly together. The T would be dead and buried if Leica listened to some opinions here; instead, they've just updated the firmware and announced two new lenses. The next iteration of the T (it's only 18 months old) will surely have some improvements. As for the M, we can expect the EVF to match the SL (at least, I would have thought), and the Maestro 2 processor. I hope they don't get caught into each iteration of the M & SL leapfrogging each other ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted November 18, 2015 Share #6 Posted November 18, 2015 I see no reason why the two can't survive alongside each other, but I'm less optimistic now about the M's long-term future than I was until recently. I think the M-line will survive because some people really like it, but it won't see the type of development that has been focussed on it in recent years. This will suit some traditionalists and people who (in my opinion, often mistakenly) think of themselves as minimalists, but it will leave the M in an even more specialised role than ever. And as it becomes less capable compared with the ever-moving competition, more Leica customers and potential customers will be driven towards the SL. As Luigi says above, Leica can't afford the SL line to fail, and I don't think it can afford to see the M disappear either, and I doubt that either thing will happen. But to achieve this they will need to ensure that there is no confusion between the M and the SL lines, and as Dr Kaufmann has indicated already, the M will become the "purist" camera, and the more I think about it, the less happy I am with what I perceive to be the implications of this superficially attractive statement. I do not criticise this. It may be the best possible thing for Leica and for many of its customers in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 18, 2015 Share #7 Posted November 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The most pessimistic possible scenario for the M is that it loses its place as Leica's biggest seller; but that would only be because the SL or some other camera outsells it. In reality, the development you talk about is M8->M9->M(240). I don't share your pessimism; or rather, I see the M(240) as reasonably mature where the core digital M functionality is concerned. Extending that further will spoil the M even more than the M(240) already did. As I have said, I see no reason for Leica to remove functionality (though I suspect we might see an M9/M60 version somewhere along the line) - but I don't see them extending it at the cost of the SL either. Much like the way the M3 went through iterations before it ended up with the M7, MP & M-A variants, the M digital will be safe and will continue to develop; particularly with new electronics as they develop. Will it stay at 24MP? Who knows, but I would think the M will share digital improvements hand in hand with the SL. The "less capable" prediction you make is really directly linked to the optical viewfinder - if that gets ditched, the camera is finished. It is the point of distinction, and it is the M camera's strength. For myself, it will keep me firmly in the M system for the foreseeable future; and happily so. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 18, 2015 Share #8 Posted November 18, 2015 As Luigi says above, Leica can't afford the SL line to fail, and I don't think it can afford to see the M disappear either, and I doubt that either thing will happen. But to achieve this they will need to ensure that there is no confusion between the M and the SL lines, and as Dr Kaufmann has indicated already, the M will become the "purist" camera, and the more I think about it, the less happy I am with what I perceive to be the implications of this superficially attractive statement. The key distinction between the M and SL is that the M is a rangefinder....it will likely always have a narrow audience (relative to other systems). Kaufmann's statement doesn't preclude modernization/enhancement of the RF concept....nor the possibility that different M models, with different features, will exist side-by-side. I have more questions about Leica's overall success going forward than I do about the survivability of the M, regardless how much the M contributes to overall profitability. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted November 18, 2015 Share #9 Posted November 18, 2015 I hope the M can be a 'purist' camera in the sense that there is no AF, has an OVF, limited video, primarily designed for M prime lens (compared to SL which takes any). I hope Leica will not forsake: sensor development (backlit?), add-ons like the EVF. If Leica incrementally enhances the M in sensor/ISO technology and EVF/LCD capability then I am a happy camper. I hate innovation for innovation's sake. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiafish Posted November 18, 2015 Share #10 Posted November 18, 2015 I see no reason why the two can't survive alongside each other, but I'm less optimistic now about the M's long-term future than I was until recently. I think the M-line will survive because some people really like it, but it won't see the type of development that has been focussed on it in recent years. This will suit some traditionalists and people who (in my opinion, often mistakenly) think of themselves as minimalists, but it will leave the M in an even more specialised role than ever. And as it becomes less capable compared with the ever-moving competition, more Leica customers and potential customers will be driven towards the SL. As Luigi says above, Leica can't afford the SL line to fail, and I don't think it can afford to see the M disappear either, and I doubt that either thing will happen. But to achieve this they will need to ensure that there is no confusion between the M and the SL lines, and as Dr Kaufmann has indicated already, the M will become the "purist" camera, and the more I think about it, the less happy I am with what I perceive to be the implications of this superficially attractive statement. I do not criticise this. It may be the best possible thing for Leica and for many of its customers in the long run. The M is mature and really doesn't need much in terms of steady improvement. Many M9 users (myself included) are still happy with what we have and see no reason to upgrade. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted November 19, 2015 Share #11 Posted November 19, 2015 The SL represents a significant investment in R&D for Leica, therefore profits first go to recouping that investment before it can have a positive effect on their bottom line. The SL also competes with other cameras with similar features which sell for much less. It is priced in the realm of top-end professional DSLR's from Canikon, however the lens lineup is meager by comparison, and the lenses are far more costly, so a mass exodus from Canikon on the part of pros is iffy at best. It remains to be seen whether the SL will bring in a significant number of new buyers from a broader market than it cannibalizes from future M sales. OTOH the M line is an evolution of amortized technology, therefore even if the sales numbers are lower than the SL, the M could ostensibly be the cash cow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 19, 2015 Share #12 Posted November 19, 2015 The SL is another TTL camera like Leicaflex and R3 to R9 bodies since the sixties. Besides an EVF, the new camera can use M lenses which is a novelty. But it is as bulky as a Leicaflex more or less and it is more expensive than the regular M so it will be hard to sell i suspect as long as the M keeps a better IQ with M and R lenses, so much so if the M gains a faster EVF in its next iteration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted November 19, 2015 Share #13 Posted November 19, 2015 .... Kaufmann's statement doesn't preclude modernization/enhancement of the RF concept....nor the possibility that different M models, with different features, will exist side-by-side. Case in point...just announced M262....no LV or video.... http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/253302-leica-m-typ-262-reduction-to-rangefinder-photography-at-1000-€-less/ Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 19, 2015 Share #14 Posted November 19, 2015 The SL is another TTL camera like Leicaflex and R3 to R9 bodies since the sixties. Besides an EVF, the new camera can use M lenses which is a novelty. But it is as bulky as a Leicaflex more or less and it is more expensive than the regular M so it will be hard to sell i suspect as long as the M keeps a better IQ with M and R lenses, so much so if the M gains a faster EVF in its next iteration. I think you're grasping at straws, LCT. There's no real price difference, and finding image quality differences will be splitting hairs, particularly on current release lenses. The placing of the focus aid button is the real issue ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 19, 2015 Share #15 Posted November 19, 2015 I think you're grasping at straws, LCT. There's no real price difference, and finding image quality differences will be splitting hairs, particularly on current release lenses. The placing of the focus aid button is the real issue ... I have confirmed that. At least for the lenses I tested on the SL and that I'm very familiar with on the M-P typ 240, to say one renders noticeably better than the other requires a pixel-level image analysis mindset rather than viewing photographs and enjoying Photography... I'd much rather view photographs and enjoy Photography! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted November 19, 2015 Share #16 Posted November 19, 2015 I think you're grasping at straws, LCT. There's no real price difference, and finding image quality differences will be splitting hairs, particularly on current release lenses. The placing of the focus aid button is the real issue ... Haha fair enough but nothing personal here i've turned the page already, it's just that i can't figure out how the SL can compete vs both M and Sony bodies together with Canon and Nikon DSLRs. I hope to be proved wrong of course but i've been there since the first Leicaflex so it's just how i feel actually. YMMV.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 19, 2015 Share #17 Posted November 19, 2015 Of course, nothing personal. What is interesting is how people have reacted to the announcements over the last 12 months - largely committed M users (with all that entails): M60 - a mix of scorn and intrigue M-A - generally muted praise Q - delight SL - gnashing of teeth and the biggest existential crisis for Leica since the horror of the M5, all pretty much signifying nothing M262 - generally very positive I don't think the SL competes with either the M or the Sonys. If you want an M, the new M262 gives you a clear idea of what the M has to offer. You either get it or you don't. If you want an A7, the SL will similarly have zero interest. That won't stop M and A7 owners going to considerable lengths explaining to themselves why that is. I don't think anyone who buys the SL is likely to have such worries - so far, they seem to be happy. However, this is a Leica forum, and the mislocated focus aid button will drive some to the point of distraction. I can see whole threads about it. Really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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