k-hawinkler Posted November 10, 2015 Share #81 Posted November 10, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have seen hard vignetting with the Leica R-M, followed by a Novoflex M to E adapter. But I didn't see that when using the Novoflex R-E adapter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 Hi k-hawinkler, Take a look here Leica R and M lenses on the Leica SL (Typ 601). I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #82 Posted November 10, 2015 As I understand it the parts for updating R lenses to ROM are no longer available. Certainly in Wetzlar Doug. Although there was a faint suggestion that they might get more if demand grew (faint) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonoslack Posted November 10, 2015 Share #83 Posted November 10, 2015 The R lens scenario is quite a bit more complicated than that. There are 1-cam, 2-cam, 3-cam, R-Only, and ROM lenses in the R line ... The dedicated R Adapter SL can possibly do four things that would make it significantly more than the stacked adapters: AASD, which we've talked about ad nauseam. Read the ROM on lenses so equipped. (I know I can have my one cam and two cam lenses updated to three cam. I think there might also be the service to updated my 3 cam lenses to ROM only, but that would be expensive and it would kill them for use on the Leicaflex SL.) Translate the mechanically indicated aperture setting on the lens into an electrical value and transmit that to the body. Allow body control of the aperture (the way some R bodies including the R8/R9 do) to allow Program and Time mode exposure operation. This works with R-Only, ROM, and 3cam lenses. . What Leica has in mind I guess we'll see when they announce it. :-) Indeed, and anyone who had such an insight wouldn't be able to say anyway your 4 points actually fall into two categories I think: 1. Reading the ROM in this case the same functionality could be used to read the aperture. Actually the SL does a remarkably good job of estimating the Aperture with R lenses already). 2. Controlling the Aperture This is much more complex as the adapter will need a micro motor to change the aperture on the lens. In addition to AASD this should also allow T and P mode for R lenses. I'd love to see this, but I imagine development would be expensive ( both in terms of the hardware and camera firmware) and I wonder if they would sell enough adapters to make it worthwhile? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 10, 2015 Share #84 Posted November 10, 2015 Indeed, and anyone who had such an insight wouldn't be able to say anyway your 4 points actually fall into two categories I think: 1. Reading the ROM in this case the same functionality could be used to read the aperture. Actually the SL does a remarkably good job of estimating the Aperture with R lenses already). 2. Controlling the Aperture This is much more complex as the adapter will need a micro motor to change the aperture on the lens. In addition to AASD this should also allow T and P mode for R lenses. I'd love to see this, but I imagine development would be expensive ( both in terms of the hardware and camera firmware) and I wonder if they would sell enough adapters to make it worthwhile? Indeed, that is another way of looking at it. I was breaking out the features associated with "controlling the aperture" as they wouldn't have to do all the features. Reading and transferring a manually set aperture position is much simpler than setting the aperture position precisely. Operating AASD is simplest part of controlling the aperture ... just tension the master lever all the way for focus/framing and release it when the shutter is released (that's how the R cameras, and Nikon cameras, and Pentax cameras, etc, before T and P modes all do it). The AASD mechanism does not need to have any idea of the set aperture, it has a release lever which just pushes the lever and lets go of it at the appropriate moment, a spring in the lens itself powers movement to a position stop when the release lever releases, which is determined by the mechanical aperture regulator in the lens. My understanding is that the Leica lens ROM is a read-only device, it is not active. So current aperture setting is not transferred electronically from it, only lens characteristics and information regarding how to adjust exposure per aperture setting. ROM lenses still have the mechanical aperture regulator and AASD mechanism for readout and operation. The ability of the R bodies to set the aperture depends on the precision of the AASD release lever: when in Program or T mode, the AASD release lever has to operate somewhat more intelligently than in manual and A modes. It has to know where to stop in order to achieve a particular setting and becomes the aperture regulator's reference stop. This is the same for Pentax bodies (and maybe Nikon bodies as well). The aperture control could be done with a voice-coil positioning device, much as Olympus does with their sensor control. Very simple devices, small and very low power consumption. No micromotor required; extremely reliable. Even a position-capable solenoid device would work if you could get one accurate enough (well, maybe that's what a voice-coil positioning device is, ultimately... :-). Hardware engineers are clever. All of this is within the scope of what could be sold with an $800-1200 mount adapter. It would likely not require a battery, just a power feed from the body (which the SL lenses need anyway). I'm pretty sure that I'm not alone in that I would pay that amount (or even a bit more) for such a mount adapter. The paired adapter stack is $700 or so as it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mweaverpics Posted November 12, 2015 Share #85 Posted November 12, 2015 I have an extensive Nikon lens and camera collection that I use to yes.. produce income. Photography is my occupation. I also have an extensive Leica M collection of cameras and lenses. With that being said, the SL is of interest to me. I do like the fact that its 24 mp and has a fast focus system. It has 11 fps capability. It also will have the ability to mount just about any commonly found lens out there today if you are willing to manually focus. Yes.. I have done that in the past but... The downside is that Leica will not produce enough lenses to make it a real working pro system to compete with Nikon or Canon. If they did, the price of the lenses would be astronomical. Working pros for the most part need auto-focus lenses and mounting anything else will make the hit percentage very low with moving subjects. I do not want to go back to the way I shot 35 years ago. The technology exists if Leica would cooperate to produce adapters to mount AF lenses from say Nikon on the SL body. It can be done to retain the AF functions. The numbers of SL bodies sold will suffer greatly due to the fact that a very few lens types will be produced for a camera that has really good possibilities. Imagine the SL body with an adapter that would allow the newest Nikon mount lenses to operate as if on a D4s! Yeah.. not a Leica optic but it's still way better than not having a 600 f4 or 200 f2 when that's what you need. The body is priced right when compared to Nikon and Canon models of similar build and purpose. If I were Leica I'd do everything possible to produce a well received "universal" body with adapters to use everyone else's glass. Sure, I'd create really good Leica glass as well, but the numbers of users that would buy the body and mount other AF glass from N or C on it is probably much higher than those that would mount Leica glass on it. So, does someone like Sigma produce the adapters with cooperation from Leica? Even if they were $1500 retail, they would sell well due to what possibilities they would allow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share #86 Posted November 12, 2015 I have an extensive Nikon lens and camera collection that I use to yes.. produce income. Photography is my occupation. I also have an extensive Leica M collection of cameras and lenses. With that being said, the SL is of interest to me. I do like the fact that its 24 mp and has a fast focus system. It has 11 fps capability. It also will have the ability to mount just about any commonly found lens out there today if you are willing to manually focus. Yes.. I have done that in the past but... The downside is that Leica will not produce enough lenses to make it a real working pro system to compete with Nikon or Canon. If they did, the price of the lenses would be astronomical. Working pros for the most part need auto-focus lenses and mounting anything else will make the hit percentage very low with moving subjects. I do not want to go back to the way I shot 35 years ago. The technology exists if Leica would cooperate to produce adapters to mount AF lenses from say Nikon on the SL body. It can be done to retain the AF functions. The numbers of SL bodies sold will suffer greatly due to the fact that a very few lens types will be produced for a camera that has really good possibilities. Imagine the SL body with an adapter that would allow the newest Nikon mount lenses to operate as if on a D4s! Yeah.. not a Leica optic but it's still way better than not having a 600 f4 or 200 f2 when that's what you need. The body is priced right when compared to Nikon and Canon models of similar build and purpose. If I were Leica I'd do everything possible to produce a well received "universal" body with adapters to use everyone else's glass. Sure, I'd create really good Leica glass as well, but the numbers of users that would buy the body and mount other AF glass from N or C on it is probably much higher than those that would mount Leica glass on it. So, does someone like Sigma produce the adapters with cooperation from Leica? Even if they were $1500 retail, they would sell well due to what possibilities they would allow. In in the last edition of LFI that I received today, Stephan Schulz, Head of Leica Product Management Professional Camera Systems says (and I quote) : ... We expect that adaptors for other systems will appear on the market soon. A number of mechanical adaptors is already available and we are convinced that there will also be electronic solutions for the autofocus available in due course. ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share #87 Posted November 12, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) In in the last edition of LFI that I received today, Stephan Schulz, Head of Leica Product Management Professional Camera Systems says (and I quote) : ... We expect that adaptors for other systems will appear on the market soon. A number of mechanical adaptors is already available and we are convinced that there will also be electronic solutions for the autofocus available in due course. ... But Stephan Schultz and Stefan Daniel are very discreet about the R adaptor..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 12, 2015 Share #88 Posted November 12, 2015 In in the last edition of LFI that I received today, Stephan Schulz, Head of Leica Product Management Professional Camera Systems says (and I quote) : ... We expect that adaptors for other systems will appear on the market soon. A number of mechanical adaptors is already available and we are convinced that there will also be electronic solutions for the autofocus available in due course. ... Imagine if Leica produced them themselves. Now, I can hear the experts sagely repeating truisms about Leica not promoting the sale of other people's lenses etc. All very wise but ... actually not true. As I recall, Leica supported the S system, and acknowledged how slowly they were producing the S lenses by providing Leica made (or designed) adapters for ... Hasselblad lenses made by Zeiss. Sounds like a great idea to me; sadly, Leica can be a little conservative when it comes to great ideas ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicaiste Posted November 12, 2015 Author Share #89 Posted November 12, 2015 In in the last edition of LFI that I received today, Stephan Schulz, Head of Leica Product Management Professional Camera Systems says (and I quote) : ... We expect that adaptors for other systems will appear on the market soon. A number of mechanical adaptors is already available and we are convinced that there will also be electronic solutions for the autofocus available in due course. ... Metabones ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 12, 2015 Share #90 Posted November 12, 2015 It would be a mistake for Leica to backwards-engineer adapters and mounts for other manufacturers' lenses: too much product and support liability burden. This is a job for third parties, and if they do it, it validates the market's interest in the SL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 12, 2015 Share #91 Posted November 12, 2015 It would be a mistake for Leica to backwards-engineer adapters and mounts for other manufacturers' lenses: too much product and support liability burden. This is a job for third parties, and if they do it, it validates the market's interest in the SL. Why would it be a mistake? It's not about backwards engineering (that applies to making other people's products); it's about making a mount for the SL which will connect to the Nikon and Canon AF lenses. Sony apparently has made their FE mount compatible with Canon, and more force to them. Similarly, as I mentioned, it is Leica who made the Hasselblad compatible mount for the S ... Liability, I don't get. If it increases SL sales, surely that is a good thing? I know Leica will probably echo your sentiment - leave it to third parties. The problem with that is that Leica hasn't licensed the 6-bit coding for M lenses, and the Novoflex R-L mount is dumb which is not very helpful. I assume that the Canon AF connection in their mount is not restricted by patent or copyright (otherwise, how did Sony manage it?). Anyone know if access to the Nikon mount technology is constrained? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 13, 2015 Share #92 Posted November 13, 2015 Unless Canon and Nikon have published their mount and lens-body control protocols (I doubt it), someone had to reverse engineer it to provide functionality and lens control operation. They're probably fairly simple anyway, but even simple things require engineering effort. Metabones did, and carefully does not guarantee either compatibility or operation (read their EULA). They're a small company, with little worth going after in terms of product liability suits or a major, international reputation to uphold. (Frankly, their lens mount adapters for Leica to Sony and Leica to mFT were the worst of all the ones I tried, flat out not working with half my lenses. I returned them after two exchanges. And those are simple adapters...) Do you think a Leica customer paying $1200 or more for an adapter is going to be happy with that? Leica's stock in trade is ultimately their excellent quality and exceptional customer support over long periods of time. They can afford to do this with their own lenses and bodies because they have all the information to do so at their disposal. They cannot afford to support every little imperfection and glitch with the vast array of Nikon or Canon equipment. The Sony-Canon mount compatibility that I find is basically Sony giving Metabones and others sufficient Sony EF mount specs such that they can create adapters for Canon lenses once they figure out the Canon lens control protocol. I don't see any Sony-branded lens mount adapters other than for Sony A-Mount lenses to EF mount, and Sony has such a crappy hodgepodge of a lens system for EF mount it's actually essential that they get lots of Canon lens users such adapters. Leica has an extensive and excellent lens system with M, R, S, and T lines that they've built the SL to leverage, in addition to the dedicated SL lenses to come. The value proposition to Leica is that tha SL inspires Leica lens sales ... Body sales alone net little in way of profitability ... And there are plenty of potential lens sales in M, S, and T current lenses (discounting R lenses as they are no longer available new other than as NOS items). So let third parties take the engineering and liability hits on adapters for other makes of lenses, while Leica puts its development money into their own lens lines for adaptation. I don't get the notion that Nikon and Canon lens users are going to swoon over the SL body as a vehicle for using their lenses, just like I don't get the present trend of those same owners swooning over Sony bodies. My D750 does a heck of a lot better, more compatible, more feature-rich job with my collection of Nikon lenses, from brand new to 1960s manufacture, than my Sony A7 ever did—that's one of the reasons I sold off the A7. The D750 is a far better camera body to use those lenses with. I'm swooning over the SL because it will without a doubt be the best possible way for me to make use of my R lenses on a digital body as well as with its own outstanding lenses, and should also work very well with my M lenses. The rest is nice if it's well integrated and the lenses prove a good match, but I'm not expecting miracles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 13, 2015 Share #93 Posted November 13, 2015 I'm not sure that analysis really answers the issues. Take one point - if Leica is purely focussed on their own lens sales, and all the rest, why did Leica release an S adapter for Hasselblad lenses. The biggest criticism of this system so far is the lack of lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted November 13, 2015 Share #94 Posted November 13, 2015 The biggest criticism of this system so far is the lack of lenses. Patience. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 13, 2015 Share #95 Posted November 13, 2015 I'm not sure that analysis really answers the issues. Take one point - if Leica is purely focussed on their own lens sales, and all the rest, why did Leica release an S adapter for Hasselblad lenses. The biggest criticism of this system so far is the lack of lenses. The S was an entirely new market for them and needed lens support in a realm where they had nothing to support it with at first, other than one or two lenses offered at the time of introduction. I'm not familiar with the details of the lens adapters they offered for the S, but surely the Medium Format Digital camera market is *entirely* different from the 35mm-derivative Nikon/Canon marketplace. The SL goes out with one native zoom lens in the most popular range used by most amateurs and pros alike, two other lenses in prototype due with 12 months, and compatibility with over 100 different Leica lenses from R, M, and T camera lines. Surely this is an entirely different game compared to offering a totally new system in a completely different, incompatible format from anything they'd done before. Those who complain about a "lack of lenses" are, IMO, not really thinking about the Leica SL very clearly. Even if I didn't buy the 24-90mm lens and constrained myself just to the M Adapter T for M-mount lenses, I have a dozen different lenses I can use on the camera as soon as I get it. Expecting a full system of camera and multiple, native, dedicated lenses to be offered to the market at first blush is an unwarranted expectation—not even Nikon or Canon offer totally new camera systems that way, see the Nikon 1 and Canon M system introductions that went out with a very modest complement of lenses for the first year (and more). The SL was designed to work with all of Leica's lens series, not just its own new lenses (much like the Micro-FourThirds system at introduction had only a couple of inexpensive, consumer grade lenses dedicated to it, and leveraged an adapter to allow access to the full complement of the top-notch, FourThirds SLR pro-grade lenses already available). People nowadays just seem to want everything now now NOW! Permanent instant gratification is the expected norm. It's crazy: good things take time to develop... A little patience goes a long way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 13, 2015 Share #96 Posted November 13, 2015 You may be right, but I wouldn't say this is an "entirely different" situation to the S. Time will tell. I agree that it is unrealistic to expect a full gamut of lenses to be on offer from day one - lack of lenses is a criticism I agree is unwarranted. However, if this is truly a "professional" camera, most professionals will have either Nikon or Canon AF lenses. Accommodating them would make a significant difference for this professionals. I'd guess many professionals who had R lenses would have liquidated those investments a long time ago. Anyway, we'll see. I agree it is unlikely that Leica will offer either Canon or Nikon adapters, but having offered a Hasselblad one does set a precedent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 13, 2015 Share #97 Posted November 13, 2015 I've mentioned before the disdain with which I regard calling something a "professional" camera. It has no meaning. The SL is a pro-grade camera: built to last and with features that allow a wide range of uses, good handling, and a long future in front of it. Whether professional photographers, and from what photographic professions, adopt it as their tool of choice remains to be seen. I hardly expect any any current pro shooter to dump their current, reliable, proven gear for any new camera right away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted November 13, 2015 Share #98 Posted November 13, 2015 I've mentioned before the disdain with which I regard calling something a "professional" camera. It has no meaning. The SL is a pro-grade camera: built to last and with features that allow a wide range of uses, good handling, and a long future in front of it. Whether professional photographers, and from what photographic professions, adopt it as their tool of choice remains to be seen. I hardly expect any any current pro shooter to dump their current, reliable, proven gear for any new camera right away. That's as may be, but that is the way it is marketed by Leica, and it genuinely does seem to be a market sector they want this camera to appeal to. Sure, few working professionals are going to shout Yippee and dump their existing systems for an SL and one lens. But, it is a significant sector of the market, and the camera will be far more attractive to those professionals if they can continue to use their favoured existing lenses ... It's one thing to have distain for "professional" aspirations, when what they mean is this is a pro-grade camera. But, quite another to simply ignore working professionals - they do buy new cameras from time to time, and they also may have fond memories of using Leica previously, and a smaller camera without an mirror box may well appeal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted November 13, 2015 Share #99 Posted November 13, 2015 Calling something a "professional camera" in your literature is just modern marketing nonsense, like calling a Pontiac "Gran Prix Homologato" (GTO) always was. Of course Leica wants professional photogs to be interested in the SL, but you do that by creating a fine design, building it well, developing it with care and nuance, expanding its lens portfolio, and demonstrating its capabilities over time. That's what pros care about, not a name or a label. You call something a professional camera to attract the larger community of wannabes and amateurs to the fantasy that if they buy your product they can consider themselves professionals. It's a load of malarkey but it sells. I'm very surprised that Leica would market a camera this way; it cheapens the product. They could have stated it much more elegantly by not calling it a "professional camera" but by articulating that it is a design meant to withstand the rigors of professional use and provide the capabilities desired/required by professional photographers. Do you see the difference? It's all in how you use the words... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted November 13, 2015 Share #100 Posted November 13, 2015 That is as may be, but Leica does have a group of professionals whom they consult during the design process regarding the needs of different specialisms in the field. That does lend a certain justification to the claim. Doubtless other brands have a similar system, and they too grade their pro-level cameras similarly. I cannot see what is wrong with that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.