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New Leica M in September 2016? The speculations.

Paulus

By Paulus
in Leica M (Type 240 / 262)

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Giulio Zanni

Giulio Zanni

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I tried a couple of times to shoot long exposures without black frame reduction on my previous DSLR cameras. I spent the entire night cloning out the hot pixels.

 

Try the original Sony A7r or the Nikon D750 and you will be surprised. The two famous long exposures photographers Joel Tjintielaar and Julia Anna Gospodarou use the Canon 5 MkIII with LENR turn off. The 5D MkIII is not the best camera for long exposures but it still can do the job with LENR turned off. 

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edwardkaraa

edwardkaraa

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Try the original Sony A7r or the Nikon D750 and you will be surprised. The two famous long exposures photographers Joel Tjintielaar and Julia Anna Gospodarou use the Canon 5 MkIII with LENR turn off. The 5D MkIII is not the best camera for long exposures but it still can do the job with LENR turned off.

Undoubtedly some sensors are better than others in this regard, and even though I'm neutral because I rarely shoot long exposures, I would certainly prefer if the M could shoot high quality long exposures, and without needing the black frame noise reduction. It's not really a priority but it's something nice to have.

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ski542002

ski542002

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I don't think you can skip A mode and exposure compensation on a modern camera....(this is also the way I shoot) 

 

I think you get used to setting exposure a specific way, and when what you're used to is changed due to how a camera is designed, re-designed, your proven method becomes less efficient and less accurate. I tried AE over the years and in the last 10 years I've never used it.  You're just achieving the same result using a different set of controls, and IMO using fully manual aperture/shutter controls is more consistent and just as fast to change on-the-fly. As much as I enjoy my SL, it's always on manual everything.  I set the shutter speed on the SL, and adjust the aperture on my M-lenses to what I need for a given situation. Unless the sun is moving in-and-out of fast-moving cloud cover, I don't encounter a scenario where I need to make quick adjustments. I shot this way with my M9/M240 and continue to shoot this way with my SL.  If I ever move to a MF digicam, it'll be the same.

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jaapv

jaapv

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What does the badging by Leica of this year's photokina presentations as being for the professional mean for the M240 successor (including whether it will be announced there)?

I do not think exegesis works here, given that the M is not really aimed at the professional market, for all it being a professional level camera - whatever that means.

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edwardkaraa

edwardkaraa

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One scenario where auto works better is when I'm aimlessly walking about taking street shots. The light is constantly changing, from sun to shade to dark alleys, so it would be too slow to shoot in manual, and I would miss many opportunities while I'm adjusting the settings. However, I shoot manual when I'm shooting a specific subject, under reasonably constant light.

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Tmuussoni

Tmuussoni

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Sensors don't process light the same way as film. If the sensor doesn't cool off, or gets hot from being on too long, you get very undesirable results.

Speak for yourself. I have had Canon 5Dc, 5D II, 5D III, Sony A7, A7r, not one of them have problems doing long exposures even up to over 30 mins. You can even do manually a dark-frame subtraction if you want for even better results. The point is we should have the ability to do this as all other cameras do. Telling other people to "use those other cameras" does not help anyone. If you don't use long exposures, fine, don't use them. I am sometimes baffled the way some people react when you present a valid weakness of a camera system and when all we want is to get it sorted out in the next M :) ...

 

 

I think the argument by Leica is that they incorporate the black frame reduction in order to have the best result.

Temperature induced noise has  less to do with sensor technology (apart from the CMos-CCD difference), it is more a question of temperature management, which might be restricted by the cramped space inside the the M.

 

There are plenty of cameras which have even more cramped space than the M has. So I have hard time buying this explanation. Perhaps it's simply Leica's willing decision  for perfect image quality meaning they don't tolerate hot pixels. I would rather have few hot pixels and remove them myself than not having the shot taken at all... :)

 

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Giulio Zanni

Giulio Zanni

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Why not?

 

 

Because for me that would be going backward. If you want to shoot manual you should be able to do it, but getting rid of A mode and exposure compensation would be nonsense. I moved from M6 to M7 in order to have A, I moved from R6 to R7 in order to have A, I moved from M7 to M8 in order to shoot digital (bad move because I didn't like the camera). I came back to Leica when live view was introduced. Even the M-D has A mode. Since we have an histrogram available, I find shooting in A mode very confortable. I think it all depends on which kind of photography you do. 

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Giulio Zanni

Giulio Zanni

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Speak for yourself. I have had Canon 5Dc, 5D II, 5D III, Sony A7, A7r, not one of them have problems doing long exposures even up to over 30 mins. You can even do manually a dark-frame subtraction if you want for even better results. The point is we should have the ability to do this as all other cameras do. Telling other people to "use those other cameras" does not help anyone. If you don't use long exposures, fine, don't use them. I am sometimes baffled the way some people react when you present a valid weakness of a camera system and when all we want is to get it sorted out in the next M :) ...

 

 

 

There are plenty of cameras which have even more cramped space than the M has. So I have hard time buying this explanation. Perhaps it's simply Leica's willing decision  for perfect image quality meaning they don't tolerate hot pixels. I would rather have few hot pixels and remove them myself than not having the shot taken at all... :)

 

 

+1

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jaapv

jaapv

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Because for me that would be going backward. If you want to shoot manual you should be able to do it, but getting rid of A mode and exposure compensation would be nonsense. I moved from M6 to M7 in order to have A, I moved from R6 to R7 in order to have A, I moved from M7 to M8 in order to shoot digital (bad move because I didn't like the camera). I came back to Leica when live view was introduced. Even the M-D has A mode. Since we have an histrogram available, I find shooting in A mode very confortable. I think it all depends on which kind of photography you do. 

I don't mind shooting on AE, but as soon as I see exposure problems ahead I will move to manual. I don't think one should get hung up on automation. That does not mean getting rid of AE, like the R6 did.

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Nick Bedford

Nick Bedford

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Auto exposure makes constantly changing light in street photography far less annoying to work with, for example, but if you want to manually set exposure then you can also do so if you wish. I found it a royal pain in the butt to constantly have to switch down and up several stops when I borrowed my mate's MP to shoot some Portra, for example.

 

Use each for what they're meant for. AE for changing light, M for controlled exposure. I personally find that in my type of shooting (no longer studio work, but outdoors which is all over the place), AE lock just makes so much more sense for that, and when I want to take my time or shoot a panorama for example, I use manual exposure. I'm no more or less capable of exposing my photographs properly because of which exposure method I use. One or the other is just a better choice.

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jaapv

jaapv

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Why shouldn't we ?- the question was whether setting AE compensation on a M is useful compared to switching to manual. I think that AE compensation is the worst way to go about it. YMMV. AE lock-recompose is practical as well.

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jmahto

jmahto

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My gripe with AE lock is that it's only good for one shot.

I hate exposure compensation via wheel because it is sticky. If I am not careful then I can shoot a whole lot of frames without realizing that compensation is in effect.

 

AE lock works for me mainly because it is good for only one shot. If I want control over multiple frames then I go full manual and take the shutterspeed dial off A. Looking through OVF, there is no confusion about my shooting mode.

 

Leica, please don't change anything here. Simply improve the sensor for M and redirect others (who want to improve M user experience) to SL.

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exile

exile

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I did not realize the M240 had a 60second limit to Bulb! Glad I skipped that. I'm shooting my 7th year with the M9 and occasionally wish only for:

Better high ISO performance,

Live view for macro work using +4 close-up filters/dioptres.

longer Bulb limit,

Lighter and weather-sealed body would be nice.

 

Even with all of the above I may not rush to upgrade straight away, but shoot the 9 to death first. The threshold repair expense would be something like a new sensor.

 

What I don't use:

Frame lever.

jpg processing.

AE compensation.

AE bracketing.

That auto-everything mode (S-mode?)

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