pop Posted March 21, 2016 Share #581 Posted March 21, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) IkarusJohn - Since you insist on "interpreting" my contributions in an entirely arbitrary manner, I will stop contributing to this thread. I feel my time is better spent in discussions where facts and opinions are valued. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 21, 2016 Posted March 21, 2016 Hi pop, Take a look here New Leica M in September 2016? The speculations.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
CheshireCat Posted March 21, 2016 Share #582 Posted March 21, 2016 Slightly puzzled about the supposed reliability of mechanical gear over electronics. My experience is rather the opposite. My experience is the same. The problem with electronics, though, is repairability, especially when parts are no more available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2016 Share #583 Posted March 21, 2016 Well, let's discuss camera of which many parts are unavailable like the M3 ever considered the cost of machining the gears of the shutter mechanism? The R8 and R9 cannot be repaired economically either, over engineered as they are. Just jam the rewind or aperture preview mechanism: dustbin unless you are extraordinary lucky... OTOH, the parts that usually fail in ancient electronic gear, the condensers and tubes, are still freely available. So it just depends on which part breaks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted March 21, 2016 Share #584 Posted March 21, 2016 @Pop: Please don't stop contributing. You know more than most people and many people, as well as me, enjoy reading your comments. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 21, 2016 Share #585 Posted March 21, 2016 Modularity does exist for people who cannot afford a new body every 3 or 4 years. It is called second hand market. Some of us are taking superb photographs with an Epson R-D1 (2004) or a Leica M8 (2006) and the later is still supported by Leica for the most part. Those bodies won't live forever of course but aside from some die-hard Leica fans how many photogs are still using 10+ y/o cameras on a day to day basis? Things were not much different in the film days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 21, 2016 Share #586 Posted March 21, 2016 Slightly puzzled about the supposed reliability of mechanical gear over electronics. My experience is rather the opposite. Mine isn't. All of my digital Leicas (M9, Monochrome, M60 and SL) have either been replaced or had holidays in Solms or Wetzlar; of my two film Leicas, the M3 (circa 1960) went in for CLA and new vulcanite. I can't recall the film Leicas having IR filter problems, cover glass cracking, LCD coffee stains, sensor corrosion or any of the other myriad problems reported here. I do recall the film transport on the M-A being discussed, but that's about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2016 Share #587 Posted March 21, 2016 Advertisement (gone after registration) Three broken R8 and R9 cameras in my drawer, one Leica Mini-zoom, one iiif, all irreparable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 21, 2016 Share #588 Posted March 21, 2016 When my M3 went back, it got a full CLA. The only thing they did say was that the rangefinder was delaminating slightly and could not be repaired. That was about three years ago - over 50 years since the camera was produced. M8 LCD - can't be repaired. Last produced 2009 - 7 years ago ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 21, 2016 Share #589 Posted March 21, 2016 We all know what happened with the M8 LCD - hardly representative. Let's talk about the cartloads of LTM camera parts that were thrown into the rubbish when Leica moved to Solms. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 21, 2016 Share #590 Posted March 21, 2016 Well, let's discuss camera of which many parts are unavailable like the M3 ever considered the cost of machining the gears of the shutter mechanism? Oh no! I'm not worried about when/if my M4 or M2 cameras might catastrophically fail. Not at 70 my years-old. . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 22, 2016 Share #591 Posted March 22, 2016 We all know what happened with the M8 LCD - hardly representative. Let's talk about the cartloads of LTM camera parts that were thrown into the rubbish when Leica moved to Solms. Saying "we all know" doesn't change the simple facts. I'm not sure why you're listing cameras which Leica has discontinued, when what we're trying to discuss (at least, that's what I think we're trying to discuss) is giving some longevity to the digital M camera. If you're saying that mechanical cameras die too, I'm sure no one disagrees with you. However, if you're saying that there's nothing wrong with the electronics in Leica cameras and they are as good as their mechanics, I suspect you might be on your own. The list of flaws I outlined earlier were significant and were electronic. You can add lug failures if you wish, but they hardly turn cameras into paperweights ... PS - is it hard to understand the point I'm making? I'm just struggling to come to grips with why two Moderators seem so committed to raising largely irrelevant factors in an apparent attempt to deflect the discussion from what is surely unassailable. Let me put this another way - the price of a Leica camera reflects the quality of its manufacture, and its singular approach to photography; the longevity of the body and mechanical parts is not reflected in its electronic parts; therefore, in my view, Leica needs to rectify this problem. The solution is for Leica to either provide better quality electronics (unrealistic, I'd say - we've had to accept that electronics have a limited operating life) or provide for secure electronic supplies which enable cameras to operate for a period which justifies their cost and otherwise fabulous build quality, or fix the physical constraints so that there is a level of interchangeability with components from future M cameras. The flaw in this, already raised by Pop, is that future M cameras may have different dimensions and different functionality. That may be true, but if we look historically, film cameras changed very significantly during their years of dominance, and yet Leica produced a film camera recently of the same dimensions as the M3; similarly, digital cameras come in all shapes and sizes, yet Leica continues to produce its M camera in the same form (albeit slightly thicker and taller to allow for the electronics - all the better to standardise to). The M camera is all about the optical rangefinder, focus and aperture on excellent M lenses, ISO and shutter speed on the camera. That hasn't actually changed much in over 60 years, and Leica still produces cameras with that simplicity. The rest is just excuses, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 22, 2016 Share #592 Posted March 22, 2016 Nor should you be worried about an M240 failing in 15 years time , Pico - I'm not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 22, 2016 Share #593 Posted March 22, 2016 Saying "we all know" doesn't change the simple facts. I'm not sure why you're listing cameras which Leica has discontinued, when what we're trying to discuss (at least, that's what I think we're trying to discuss) is giving some longevity to the M camera. If you're saying that mechanical cameras die too, I'm sure no one disagrees with you. However, if you're saying that there's nothing wrong with the electronics in Leica cameras and they are as good as their mechanics, I suspect you might be on your own. The list of flaws I outlined earlier were significant and were electronic. You can add lug failures if you wish, but they hardly turn cameras into paperweights ... There is indeed nothing wrong with the electronics in Leicas, bar that they are electronics like in any other digital camera. Welcome to the 21st century. You make it sound like the Wetzlar Dwarves are soldering transistors to resistors in the Black Forest. Leica buys their electronics on the international market, just like everybody else. BTW, last time I looked the M8 you used as an example was discontinued as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted March 22, 2016 Share #594 Posted March 22, 2016 [...[ Let's talk about the cartloads of LTM camera parts that were thrown into the rubbish when Leica moved to Solms. Are you kidding us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 22, 2016 Share #595 Posted March 22, 2016 I'm afraid not - it is a rather saddening part of Leica history. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 22, 2016 Share #596 Posted March 22, 2016 There is indeed nothing wrong with the electronics in Leicas, bar that they are electronics like in any other digital camera. Welcome to the 21st century. You make it sound like the Wetzlar Dwarves are soldering transistors to resistors in the Black Forest. Leica buys their electronics on the international market, just like everybody else. BTW, last time I looked the M8 you used as an example was discontinued as well. Rather than selectively quote, I've bolded the bit which seems to reinforce the point I'm making. If the digital M cameras are just electronics like any other digital camera then price it accordingly and make the body from molded plastic ... Saying "welcome to the 21st century then putting words into my mouth about dwarves soldering in the Black Forest doesn't really contribute to the discussion, Jaap. Leica does buy their electronics from selected suppliers to its specifications. They are not off the shelf, so they do have control over what is produced to their designs and specifications. Sure, the M8 was discontinued. That's the point, isn't it? It was not only discontinued, but now not repairable. No one is saying (I think) that Leica should stop their roughly 3 year release cycle, are they? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted March 22, 2016 Share #597 Posted March 22, 2016 Upgrading electronics is not magic, I did it for years on PC's and the systems were way more complex than existing cameras. But Leica is not going to have a modular body because they make more money selling new ones. - Leica could release paid upgrades to existing M 240 bodies. Doubt if the SL sensor plus support needs more power or space than what the M can provide with slight modifications. - Leica could work with sensor manufacturers to create new sensors with better parameters that fit existing M240 cameras. The upgrade would probably be cheaper than a new body, but the profit margin would be meager. - Finally, Leica could offer a transparent upgrade program for existing owners, like software upgrades, where you purchase new models at a discount. But it will not. Leica is in large part owned by Blackstone - an equity group run by ex Lehman Bros whose job is to secure an annual revenue stream of about 7-8 billion. As long as customers are rich enough to flock to the latest SL,Q, M, T, S or whatnot that is so eloquently branded to targeted groups of users (also on this forum) then we will not see any modular solutions, or long lasting value. Built in obsolescence is the norm, but it is not fully justified by technology, but primarily by profit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 22, 2016 Share #598 Posted March 22, 2016 Rather than selectively quote, I've bolded the bit which seems to reinforce the point I'm making. If the digital M cameras are just electronics like any other digital camera then price it accordingly and make the body from molded plastic ... Saying "welcome to the 21st century then putting words into my mouth about dwarves soldering in the Black Forest doesn't really contribute to the discussion, Jaap. Leica does buy their electronics from selected suppliers to its specifications. They are not off the shelf, so they do have control over what is produced to their designs and specifications. Sure, the M8 was discontinued. That's the point, isn't it? It was not only discontinued, but now not repairable. No one is saying (I think) that Leica should stop their roughly 3 year release cycle, are they? Well, it is repairable except for one part. Reading the forum, not many appear to break down finally though.Sounds a bit different. Actually it is a nice example, as the LCD was an off-the-shelf product which through a chain of circumstances became unavailable. Anyway, yes, we live in an age in which product obsolescence comes faster than one would wish, but it has little to do with the nature of the product. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted March 22, 2016 Share #599 Posted March 22, 2016 Apart from nitpicking, what's your point? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 22, 2016 Share #600 Posted March 22, 2016 The point of all this? That, if you go back to my original post, electronic gear is not more prone to break down than mechanical. In fact, as electronic failures are often early ones as opposed to mechanical failures, it may prove more reliable in the long run. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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