Video?

[digitalfx]

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Another hands-on about the SL video:

 

http://www.eoshd.com/2015/11/leica-sl-hands-on-first-impressions-review-from-a-video-perspective/

 

 Ok, here is my .02 on this review. Normally this reviewer is pretty spot on in his reviews, but in this instance I think his footage is over exposed causing some of the issue. But since the shot he provided is really worthless for testing purposes its very hard to tell. The curve applied is drastic, but until we have some properly shot footage and a better subject I would reserve judgement.

 

This brings up a very important point. For this camera to be considered by professionals, it must have a viewing LUT. Without a viewing LUT and a live histogram during recording it is extremely difficult to properly expose and focus this camera while shooting LOG. PLEASE Leica, tell us its possible to add a viewing LUT to the EVF and LCD when shooting LOG.

 

Now back to the test. The footage is very easy to correct, and I was quite pleased with the results. Again, the footage doesn't really give us a subject matter that is appropriate for testing, but based on the one shot he supplied I was able to quickly get a very nice contrast image. I do see unacceptable banding, but I assume this is due to the 8bit in camera recording. I wish the camera could record 10 bit internally as 8 bit is not usable in a professional application, so we will be required to use an external recorder which defeats the purpose of having a small camera. Also ProRes as the reviewer suggested would be a much better option for a camera marketed to professionals.

 

I can do proper testing once my camera arrives.

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[digitalfx]

here is a quick curve applied, you can see its pretty extreme. Would I need to push it so far if it was exposed properly? 

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Edited November 11, 2015 by digitalfx

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[digitalfx]

Impossible to tell in this forum with the image size restrictions...but this is a 100% crop. There is considerable breakup of the video just to the left of the brochures, and banding in the blacks to the far left. You really need to view this on a professional calibrated monitor to see the issue...but it is there and considerable. Again likely exaggerated by the 8 bit recording and the fact the source is overexposed.

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[psss]

because of the strange log it is hard to find correct exposure, but i believe in this case the exposure is not really off, the nature of the log requires a pretty extreme curve to be applied....the tests i did with the SL showed no banding and graded well, with a similar extreme curve applied.....

the big issue i have with this review is that andrew calls the log an obvious flaw but likes the in camera non log video....

there is no camera this size that shoots internal 10bit and none of the DSLRs or sony A7 (r,s,II,....) have 10 bit clean out....

i think the camera size issue with an external recorder is more of an issue that with all existing (and heavily used) DSLRs or A7 is that you still only get 8 bit pro res....

a lot of people shoot professionally with 8 bit internal (canon C series, even the new sony FS5) in fact these are the workhorses of today....

 

the SL falls into a strange spot....i plan on doing in depth tests with external vs internal recording as soon as i get mine.....to me the internal Vlog reminds me of the varicam (panasonic)....

[psss]

i agree 100% that LUT implementation would a be huge for the SL.....the log asks for it and the the EVF is made for it....

which reminds me that a decent cinema EVF (without camera, just the finder) coming nowhere close to the resolution and size of the one on the SL, regardless of manufacturer (sony, canon,red or 3rd party) is 3000$ and up.....so the SL is a bargain....in that regard....and if the 10bit out and log really live up to the promise.....

[digitalfx]

Well the highlights are clipped...so yes its over exposed. And if this is the final version of the LOG, then it is a problem as the curve has to be pushed to the limits to correct...they must allow headroom. Look at the footage on a large calibrated monitor...the banding and noise is plainly visible, especially in the left corner.

[psss]

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Well the highlights are clipped...so yes its over exposed. And if this is the final version of the LOG, then it is a problem as the curve has to be pushed to the limits to correct...they must allow headroom. Look at the footage on a large calibrated monitor...the banding and noise is plainly visible, especially in the left corner.

i did not actually download these clips from eoshd since i shot own..it does not surprise me that the highlights are clipped in this case, he is shooting straight out the window and the interior is very dark....to hold exposure for outside would probably mean letting the interior go completely dark....the SL is definitely not  a DR monster anyway.....log does not change that.....

i am not sure this is the final word on what we can get out of the SL in terms of video....i think it's a start....as soon as i get my camera i will work with a high end LUT software company to get the best out of the SL....the log is strange but i much prefer it to slog 3 in the new sonys which leads to banding in skies at correct exposure....

i would not be surprised if the SL can find a strong market in video and i also would not be surprised if leica is not fully aware of that.....canon put HD video into the 5D and everything changed....but canon did not plan it and wasn't even really prepared for it...

[digitalfx]

The Newshooter blog has some updated info:

http://www.newsshooter.com/2015/11/15/the-curious-case-of-the-leica-sl-going-hands-on-with-the-camera-confirms-issues-with-log-gamma/

 

Look at the waveform in my post above. Hopefully Leica fixed this issue and new firmware is included with cameras shipping tomorrow.

 

Not sure about his "impossible to grade" statement. Its defiantly a strange implementation...I'm not sure what Leica was thinking when they created this.

Edited November 15, 2015 by digitalfx

[psss]

thanks for pointing to that....i guess they are saying the same as andrew.....and i don't think anyone is disputing that the log is strange....the distribution is off.....but on the other hand i don't agree with the upgradeable statement at all.....i think it grades beautifully, the curve needed is just very unusual...this is a still pulled from the 8bit log clip i shot with the SL and nocti at the LA store...black t shirt, skin tone, blown out lightbox in background....no banding in any OOF transitional tones....and yes, i had to pull the blacks down to get started.....

 

edit: somehow i can attach an image to this so here is the cropped instagram link to the same image:

https://www.instagram.com/p/9lkz7TEAl_/?taken-by=paulschefz

Edited November 15, 2015 by psss

[Sully]

Thank you so much psss for tangling with this problem.  I was really worried about the, "it can't be graded"

statement from the review.  I do not have the camera yet, so, you can imagine my worries.  I await your 

findings with baited breath.  I'll use my SL for stills, but I really need it for video.

 

Ciao,  Sully

[digitalfx]

"It can't be graded" is not accurate. Look at the examples I posted, its very easy to grade the footage. There is a problem with the LOG, but stating "it can't be graded" is just false. Leica needs to fix this immediately.

[psss]

i am not sure if it is an actual problem with the log....the problem to me is more how to shoot with log enabled....since it is so flat....LUT implementation would be a great solution....

[digitalfx]

i am not sure if it is an actual problem with the log....the problem to me is more how to shoot with log enabled....since it is so flat....LUT implementation would be a great solution....

 

Look at the waveform above of the LOG footage before I applied the grade...it is not correct. The footage is over exposed, but regardless there is still an issue with Leica's implementation. But yes a viewing LUT is critical, not only for exposure but also to help with focus. It is extremely difficult to focus when the EVF displays a washed out image. I'll reserve judgement until I can properly test with my camera, but very disappointed that this wasn't properly implemented along with a viewing LUT or at least the option to add your own.

Edited November 16, 2015 by digitalfx

[psss]

ok just came across this 

http://blog.planet5d.com/2015/11/from-leica-directly-heres-whats-happening-with-l-log-on-the-sl/

this is what they got from leica:

I reached out to Steffen directly to ask about this.  Here’s his response:

Dear Hugh,

At the moment the L-Log should be used in 10bit HDMI mode. The offset does not effect the 10bit quality and the results are very good as reported from all our fieldtesters.

Honestly, I am surprised that the L-Log is used in 8bit in the reviews – but that’s why we are working on a short-term solution for 8bit – for now I can’t share any more details.

All the best,
Steffen

Interesting!

[digitalfx]

thats good to hear.

[digitalfx]

Ill try to do some 10 bit tests

[psss]

looking forward to your 10bit tests.....what are you recording on? 7Q+? shogun?

looks like we will get a fw update for 8bit log? i honestly did not know there had to be a difference, but i am always happy to be educated....

just thinking out loud here: the S and SL share the same processor, which provides 10bit internal on the S (at least that is what the specs say) and the SD II cards should be able to handle 4K 10bit files....does anyone know what the S records internally? the internal SL formats are 8bit only (or am i wrong?)....

the external 10bit log optimization kind of explains why there is no LUT support in camera....most external recorders have LUTs anyway....

looks like i won't get my SL until next week unless BH has a long order queue in which case i will probably go nuts....