Quality is good, but speed is more important.

[flyalf]

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After the SLR became easily available from the likes of Nikon and Pentax rangefinder photography exemplified by Leica found it's niche in speed.

 

But speed is nothing without anticipation, look at the work of Bresson, he didn't wait for something to happen, otherwise he'd have missed it even with a modern DSLR. So in anticipation of wanting to take a snap switch the camera on sooner.

 

 

Steve

 

This is what I wrote:

 

"Think we have got lost in this subject about M240 that is Quality is good, but speed is more important. Period."

 

This is what you quote from me:

" Quality is good, but speed is more important. Period."

 

Spot any difference? Please do me the future cortesy to quote me correct.

 

I agee in "anticipatio of the moment", but as I and others at lenght have tried to explain its a tradeoff between our workflow and battery consumption. Also not everyone agrees that a solution for a design flaw as we see it is for the customer to change workflow. For me the M is quicker and simpler to handle than other cameraes I have tried, but still have its flaws.

 

I still find it strange that someone objects to proposing to improve the start-up time for a camera that in my understanding is designed to capture the decisive moment.

[douglas fry]

 

 

The issue raised was Thorsten's article that for his style of photography, the camera is slow. I don't know if you follow Thorsten at all, but he moves reasonably quickly - capturing pictures reasonably spontaneously is his style. He takes the lens caps off his lenses, hoods on and he leaves his camera turned on. I don't think EVF is his thing. 

 

 

I think he uses the EVF2 quite a lot, especially with his (fancy) Noctilux

 

 

I'm thinking of getting one myself when shooting more studied portraits at F2 on the 90mm or F1.4 on the 50mm, just for that critical focus

[flyalf]

The M240 is super fast. What I switch it on I take a picture. It's absolutely nonsense to say it's slow

I dont think its nonsence to say its super fast or slow. But I belive there is a different subjective user experience, and that "super fast" or "slow" mean different for different users.

 

There is objective user experience data about the speed, so why not post these? I have never experienced faster start-up than 2,0 sec. I must take your word for it that your M have zero start-up time since "I switch it on I take a picture". In this case Im willing to do a trade to aquire your super fast M. Please send me a PM.

 

For me "slow" start-up time means that the M is not ready to take a picture when I am. I typically use 0,5 - 1,5 sec to raise camera, point and shoot. Others have different requirements, but that doesnt help me. 

[colonel]

I dont think its nonsence to say its super fast or slow. But I belive there is a different subjective user experience, and that "super fast" or "slow" mean different for different users.

 

There is objective user experience data about the speed, so why not post these? I have never experienced faster start-up than 2,0 sec. I must take your word for it that your M have zero start-up time since "I switch it on I take a picture". In this case Im willing to do a trade to aquire your super fast M. Please send me a PM.

 

For me "slow" start-up time means that the M is not ready to take a picture when I am. I typically use 0,5 - 1,5 sec to raise camera, point and shoot. Others have different requirements, but that doesnt help me. 

 

I agree its a subjective experience, and it all depends on exactly what you are doing and how.

 

Note: With the M240 I can set exposure, speed and focus before the camera is even on, or at any time after its switched on or sleeping.

I just wanted to repeat this as its a major advantage of the M series and contributes greatly to incremental and shot-to-shot speed.

 

Typically I walk with the camera in my hand. usually off, sometimes on. When I see an opportunity to take I either switch on or brush the shutter button. By the time the camera is at my eye I can shoot straight away.

Often I am focusing at my eye so this also happens before I take a picture.

 

I therefore find the M240 wicked fast. Never missed a shot due to speed, ever. Including with little kids. Have done with plenty of other cameras due to slow start-up, AF initially focusing in the wrong place, having to correct exposure, etc.

 

There is an engagement time, I would say a second or less, where the camera is paused after switch on. The only way I could ever simulate this is if I switch on and immediately press the shutter button.

 

2 second sounds like an exaggeration or a camera with an issue of somekind.

 

Just to 1000% check I have the camera next to me and have just simultaneously switched on and pressed the shutter button. 1 second according to my timer

[Bill Livingston]

I still find it strange that someone objects to proposing to improve the start-up time for a camera that in my understanding is designed to capture the decisive moment.

 

I think several of us have tried to explain that anticipation, planning and good fortune are the reasons that so many of what have come to be known as 'the decisive moment' photographs are successful.

 

I suggest you read further. Cartier Bresson would be a good start.

 

Remember this photograph?

 

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Do you think Cartier Bresson ran up all those steps to photograph the cyclist when he saw him coming, or do you think he saw that the curve in the road, the shape of the steps, the contrast of the rails was almost cubist in its design and then went up the steps, checked his framing and focus and waited for something interesting to happen?

 

Same as a photo I saw posted on here a little while ago... A studio photo of beautiful girl on an huge advertising hoarding, looking at an old woman walking past. Do you think the photographer saw the possibilities, waited for the appropriate subject to walk into view, then took the photo at the 'decisive moment'?

 

The answer to both questions is, obviously, 'of course'.

 

The decisive moment is choosing the right moment to fire the shutter when all elements of your composition come together. That is what the M is perfect for. Those perfect moments may happen all too rarely, but, without awareness, vision, anticipation and the ability to think through the image from before capture to the end result, you are relying on pure luck.

 

... the decisive moment is not seeing something and lifting your camera to your eye and firing at the superluminal speed of Superman. It's awareness and vision. As I've said before, if you've noticed a photo and your camera is on the table, then you are too late already.

 

Maybe this has got all out of hand because we are talking at cross purposes. I, and clearly quite a few others, don't see this as an issue because we are looking at it from a photographic point of view - how the camera works in the real world and how it is actually used.

 

Others are perhaps looking at it from a purely technical point of view and not considering actual real world use... 

 

In which case we will probably have to concede to each others point. 

 

However, there is a third position. If your camera genuinely does impact on real world use, then you should check it out. First see if you are using the flexibility of the camera to set it up in the way that best suits the way you want to use it at that moment... and if you are, check the hardware... and if you are still unsure, compare it to others or take it a service centre...

[hepcat]

Hey, can you guys believe that Leica is dropping the screw mount and knob wind for some new camera that has a bayonet mount and thumb-lever?   It doesn't take long to wind-on a new frame! And... that new lens mount will never stand up to the wear.  I can change my lenses just as fast now... and those thumb levers will just break right off after a while. In fact, they thought the lever was so fragile, they wouldn't even let it go a full-frame wind-on and made it two strokes!  Yeah... that new M3 will never go anywhere... give me that new IIIg!  That's the ticket!

 

I've read this entire thread.  I'm not sure why...  but I did.  Folks, you're in the realm of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" here.  In addition to my M9P, I have a Fuji X-T1 that has solved EVERY issue described here.  The live view is astounding.  It's fast.  VERY fast... both in turning on AND in recovery from sleep mode.  It has an electronic coincident rangefinder mode, and is weather-proof.  BUT... it's not a rangefinder camera or full-frame, and has other issues of its own, especially with the RAW files... some of the controls are inconsistent in operation, but the bottom line is that I know the limitations of both my M9P and my X-T1 (which, btw, are amazingly complimentary bodies) and use each to their strengths and work around their deficiencies.

 

While it's true that we can ask for the deficiencies in our gear to be corrected either through firmware (and Fuji is REALLY responsive in that regard) or new hardware in the next iteration of bodies, the sad truth is that not being able to overcome those deficiencies in practice is solely "operator malfunction."  It's a poor practitioner indeed who blames his gear for his or her own failures.

 

That's not to say I haven't missed some shots over the years with a variety of gear, but in reflection, I find that there was something I could have done each time to be better prepared to catch that image, and I failed to take those steps.  Since the inception of auto-focus and auto-exposure, I found that most of those shots I missed because I allowed the camera to try to figure out what I wanted it to do... which is what brought me back to Leica to begin with.

 

I have lots of anecdotes I could share in a 40-year pro career to support my views, but let me just say that blaming one's gear for missing the shot is solely an amateur pursuit... akin to blaming one's putter for missing a 3 foot putt when playing golf.  You're either on your game, or you're not...  but, absent a failure it's never the fault of the clubs.  You may choose the wrong club for the shot, and you may hit it poorly, but neither of those cases are the fault of the club.  Nor, in photography, is it the fault of the camera; even if you spend $8,000 USD for your body.

 

Speed and quality are both important, but not in equal measure in every circumstance.  What IS important is bringing back the image, and knowing how to make the gear you have work under the circumstance you have to work in.   Select your gear for the job at hand, and if your gear is less suitable for a particular job, either turn the job down, or go about it in such a way as to limit the effect of the deficiencies and go be successful.  

[LocalHero1953]

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Just to 1000% check I have the camera next to me and have just simultaneously switched on and pressed the shutter button. 1 second according to my timer

I've used this approach, but also hold the button down, then turn on, pointing at a stopwatch on screen - as good as I can manage easily at home, but a bit more reproducible. 1.7 secs is the fastest I can achieve from start-up, and the same from wake-up (the difference is indistinguishable); this is more or less the best achieved by most people the last time there was an intensive SD card thread on LUF. A few people here achieve 1 sec or so, or even "instantaneous", which is good, but clearly not universal. I'm not usually this nerdy about kit, but in the face of the comments here, a few fuzzy measurements may be helpful.

 

My subjective real-world (amateur) test is: while sitting at a cafe table chatting to friends or keeping an eye on my (edit: sorry, grand-)kids, I happen to spot an unfolding scene that calls for the fastest response: I cannot bring my (zone-focussed, preset exposure, no LV) M240 to my eye and click immediately - unless I choose to cancel the sleep function and carry an extra battery for the day. I could so choose, but I don't. I don't mind if you call this superfast or slow: it's not fast enough for me.

[hepcat]

 - unless I choose to cancel the sleep function and carry an extra battery for the day. I could so choose, but I don't. I don't mind if you call this superfast or slow: it's not fast enough for me.

Paul, that was my point.  You've identified a weakness in the gear for the way you shoot.  You've identified a way to overcome that deficiency.  The resolution, as you've identified it,  is to leave the camera "on," turn sleep off, and change out the battery when you need to.  

 

If you choose not to do that, then those shots must not be important enough to capture anyway.  That's a choice you make, not a deficiency in the equipment.  You're blaming your putter for missing that three foot put.

[lct]

[...] 2 second sounds like an exaggeration or a camera with an issue of somekind.

Just to 1000% check I have the camera next to me and have just simultaneously switched on and pressed the shutter button. 1 second according to my timer

 

Been there in my most optimistic days but when applying my method (link) my fastest results are always 1.7s for the M240 vs 1s for the M8.2. FWIW.

http://tinyurl.com/kp8qe83

[LocalHero1953]

You've identified a weakness in the gear for the way you shoot.

.............

That's ........ not a deficiency in the equipment.  

???

[hepcat]

???

 Very clever and selective out-of-context editing in your quote Paul.  Well done.

 

Your unwillingness to do what is necessary to make your equipment capture the images you want to make is NOT a deficiency in the equipment. 

 

Roger

 

On edit:  And I need to add, Paul, that you have some very nice images on your website. Very nice indeed.   

 

I am in hopes that the new M that may be introduced in the next day or so will be SO fast, amazing, and revolutionary that all of the early adopters will flood the used market with those abysmally slow M240s and M-P240s driving the used prices down to a point that we poor working photographers can actually afford them to use in the pursuit of commercial image making.  

[LocalHero1953]

Thank you, Roger, for your comments on my website.

 

I was not intending to twist a point by selective editing, and I apologise that that seemed to be the case. It is undoubtedly a fact that the M240 takes a certain time to wake up, and one can call this a feature, a defect, a weakness or whatever: the two contrasting uses of the terms in your post underlined, to me, the ambiguity in how it is perceived.

 

Fundamentally I believe that commercial products should meet the buyer's demands, not that we should accept unquestioningly whatever a company offers us (assuming that meeting one set of demands does not wreck the product for others). Just because Leica has made a camera with this "feature" does not mean it must not change. Julia Margaret Cameron's C19 cameras were slow so she adopted a workaround: she used a bracket to hold her subject's heads rigid for minutes at a time. Was this a weakness/deficiency, or just something she had to accept and not ask for better? Fortunately, cameras and emulsions got faster. In the present case, other cameras, including other and older Leica's, do not have this feature, and I am sure Leica will improve it in the next M.

 

Sure, I can adopt all the workarounds suggested (and often do): but in the end, I don't want a workaround if the need for it can be designed out.

[hepcat]

Thank you, Roger, for your comments on my website.

 

I was not intending to twist a point by selective editing, and I apologise that that seemed to be the case. It is undoubtedly a fact that the M240 takes a certain time to wake up, and one can call this a feature, a defect, a weakness or whatever: the two contrasting uses of the terms in your post underlined, to me, the ambiguity in how it is perceived.

 

Fundamentally I believe that commercial products should meet the buyer's demands, not that we should accept unquestioningly whatever a company offers us (assuming that meeting one set of demands does not wreck the product for others). Just because Leica has made a camera with this "feature" does not mean it must not change. Julia Margaret Cameron's C19 cameras were slow so she adopted a workaround: she used a bracket to hold her subject's heads rigid for minutes at a time. Was this a weakness/deficiency, or just something she had to accept and not ask for better? Fortunately, cameras and emulsions got faster. In the present case, other cameras, including other and older Leica's, do not have this feature, and I am sure Leica will improve it in the next M.

 

Sure, I can adopt all the workarounds suggested (and often do): but in the end, I don't want a workaround if the need for it can be designed out.

Thank you Paul.  Although it may not have been your intent, that is the way it came across.  I appreciate you addressing that.

 

Fundamentally, I agree with your assertion that commercial products should be made to meet the buyer's demands.  The difficult part comes in deciding which buyer, and which demands do you build your product to suit?

 

That's why 'caveat emptor' still applies, and products are seldom warranted for a failure to perform at any particular application.   A good example for me is Nikon cameras.  I have detested every Nikon body since the F2 (the first I was old enough to actually use) as every dial and control turns "backwards" from what I expect. That's not to say I haven't used them as I have when required to, but I wouldn't EVER buy a Nikon product.  There menu system is even obfuscated.  At least it was when I last checked a few years ago.  So, I'm obviously NOT the buyer they build Nikon cameras for as they don't meet MY demands.  The fact remains, however, that I can make perfectly acceptable images using a Nikon camera when I need to.  So, my question is: should I consider having a control-set that isn't intuitive a deficiency in the Nikon brand?  Should they correct that for me if I choose to buy Nikon?  Obviously, the answer is "no."  I need to buy a brand that has a control set that is intuitive for me.  And that's what I do.

 

I apply that same logic to the "slow-startup" situation.  If the body isn't responsive enough out of the box, are there work-arounds I can use to make it do what I want it to do?  If so, then I implement them and make images.  If not, then the body isn't suitable for what I do, and I find one that is; hence my ownership of both an M9-P and a Fuji X-T1.  They each have shortcomings that the other has as strong points... and both use my M-mount lenses.

 

My world is about practicality and making images, Paul...  and perhaps I'm a dinosaur, but I learned how to work shooting sports teams and doing commercial/industrial work in VERY challenging circumstances and venues, often using a Mamiya C220 three lens kit with a Honeywell 800 manual flash; a camera kit that was really only suited to in-studio portraiture.  But we made it work because the goal was to bring back the sale-able images... every time.   

 

Fortunately, equipment has improved, and will continue to improve...  but that doesn't mean that a slow-startup on the M240 is a fatal flaw...  it just means you have to think and plan a little further in advance than what you might otherwise expected or have wanted to do.  I suspect that perhaps we're all getting a little too used to "instant" everything in the age of connectivity... "instant" that's really a little less necessary than we might think it really is. 

 

I'm sorry everyone, but it is my considered opinion that this entire nine-page thread is about a topic that is genuinely "much ado about nothing."  Thanks for taking the time to read my posts.

 

and now...  back to your regularly scheduled thread...  

[Bill Livingston]

I've used this approach, but also hold the button down, then turn on, pointing at a stopwatch on screen - as good as I can manage easily at home, but a bit more reproducible. 1.7 secs is the fastest I can achieve from start-up, and the same from wake-up (the difference is indistinguishable); this is more or less the best achieved by most people the last time there was an intensive SD card thread on LUF. A few people here achieve 1 sec or so, or even "instantaneous", which is good, but clearly not universal. I'm not usually this nerdy about kit, but in the face of the comments here, a few fuzzy measurements may be helpful.

 

My subjective real-world (amateur) test is: while sitting at a cafe table chatting to friends or keeping an eye on my (edit: sorry, grand-)kids, I happen to spot an unfolding scene that calls for the fastest response: I cannot bring my (zone-focussed, preset exposure, no LV) M240 to my eye and click immediately - unless I choose to cancel the sleep function and carry an extra battery for the day. I could so choose, but I don't. I don't mind if you call this superfast or slow: it's not fast enough for me.

 

 

If this is the case Paul, then I would take your camera in to be checked. I get about 1.7 seconds from fully 'off' to firing. But if I go to 'sleep' mode, the camera wakes up and fires so quickly I can't even measure it, it is to all intents and purposes 'instant'. So, your scenario of having the camera on the table and the camera asleep, I could reach down and fire the shuttler instantaneously... I don't even have to raise it to my eyes before its ready.

 

I tried to make a little video clip of this... and failed miserably! However, I have still uploaded it, you just have to bear with the complete lack of video talent. The clip starts with the camera showing that it is switched on to 'S' (single) and then I moved my iPhone down to the viewfinder... of course I couldn't find it at first, but bear with me, you will eventually see the red shutter speed at 90 and then 60... and then it goes out as the camera goes to sleep. I had originally found a way to show the frame lines and everything... but messed up when it came to the 'take'...

 

Anyway, after the camera goes to sleep I then pan back and you can see my finger hovering over the shutter. Normally my finger rests on the shutter, but I dint want anyone suggesting that I had switched the camera out of 'sleep' mode before I fired it... so I ended up doing one of those ridiculous 'pokes' you sometimes see...

 

Anyway, it proves the point. You can hear the shutter firing instantly, even from out of sleep mode. there is no delay, let alone 1.7 seconds... its instant. Watch the video... 

 

http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v56/Livingston/IMG_0336_zpsk9xcdgaw.mp4

 

My apologies for the totally inept video... but I think you see my results are very very different from what I understand yours to be...

[250swb]

This is what I wrote:

 

"Think we have got lost in this subject about M240 that is Quality is good, but speed is more important. Period."

 

This is what you quote from me:

" Quality is good, but speed is more important. Period."

 

 

Well the forum would get very turgid if every part of every post that was being replied to was quoted, especially when irrelevant. Nevertheless what I did quote and what I did say still holds sway, it isn't the camera that should be fast, aware, awake, it is the photographer. If you can't see that you have never looked at any photography history. My goodness, if it wasn't for being awake how would Jacques Henry Lartigue have captured so many decisive moments using just a plate camera! Switch on the M240 and either set for a long 'sleep' time, or do what many people do for security and keep half pressing the shutter to ensure the camera is awake as you move in for the picture.

 

The M240 is way faster than any other Leica on an average shot by shot basis, but if you are just going to machine gun the target it clearly can't match a Nikon or a Canon, and even then nothing is guaranteed. The single shot anticipating the action in a half second before it happens is still necessary whether its a DSLR or an M240. 

 

Steve

[IkarusJohn]

I don't think that's right. My M-A has to be the fastest M camera, provided I've wound it on.

[flyalf]

Thanks for all replies. We now have the answer on speed for the new SL (BTW; a big congrats to Leica :-) ).So hopefully this will be carried on to coming new M.

 

Here is a quote from Ming Thein "All of this is antithetical to the whole gestalt of the camera – which is really one of speed. (I’m even more surprised because so many of these things were spot on with the Q.) It’s pretty much instant go when you turn it on; shot to shot speeds are lighting fast, playback is fast, magnification almost instant (I’d say they’ve almost caught up to industry benchmark Nikon here"

 

http://blog.mingthein.com/2015/10/21/premiere-review-2015-leica-sl-601/

[dot-me-not]

Great read. Puts many things in perspective for me. Suddenly the SL looks very enticing vis-a-vis a new, faster M.

[Mornnb]

 

I agee in "anticipatio of the moment", but as I and others at lenght have tried to explain its a tradeoff between our workflow and battery consumption. Also not everyone agrees that a solution for a design flaw as we see it is for the customer to change workflow. For me the M is quicker and simpler to handle than other cameraes I have tried, but still have its flaws.

 

I still find it strange that someone objects to proposing to improve the start-up time for a camera that in my understanding is designed to capture the decisive moment.

 

Well there are many ways to define speed. In terms of quickly reacting and capturing a shot, I don't find the M to be any faster or slower than a Canon DSLR. Provided the camera is on and pre-focused. You're foolish if you leave a camera switched off in a situation in which you may need to take a photo.

 

There are certain advantages a DSLR has for speed, autofocus. I can shoot a wide open 35mm 1.4 prime on a street without problem, the camera can accurately track people walking and even running and obtain in focus shots at this aperture. To do this with a rangefinder, you need to stop down to about f8 and use zone focusing. Autofocus can get you a look you can't easily get from a rangefinder.

 

However, a rangefinder makes for a much better anticipation of the moment camera. With a DSLR you are always tempted to put the camera down and look around to give you a better sense of what is going on than what you see through the peephole viewfinder. With a rangefinder it is much easier to be looking through the camera, seeing things enter your frame and to be waiting for people to give expected reactions.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[colonel]

I can raise the camera to my eye with a 35mm lens and focus with a single turn. AF is a pain for moving people as if you don't lock at the right place or refocus the thing can go anywhere. Once the M focus is focuses it doesn't move until you tell it to.

In terms of f8 for street I am fine with f1.4 and virtually never zone focus, except when shooting from the hip.

Frankly if one wants to take a sneaky shot from the hip a compact is much better then any CSC due to quietness and being inconspicuous. Although an M is the most inconspicuous of every system camera except perhaps for the Panasonic GM1/5 or Pentax Q