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28mm for the M camera: f/2.8 Elmarit, f/2 Summicron or f/1.4 Summilux?

Herr Barnack

By Herr Barnack
in Leica M Lenses

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mmradman

mmradman

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Shallow depth of field is unintended consequence of fast lens design not design intent.

 

Back to basics, shooting in poor available light (darkness) involving moving people requires fast lens and highest ISO possible otherwise all we get is blur. High usable ISO with M240 is still limiting factor today - I don't mention M246 as I don't have one.  No doubt next generation of M camera or equivalent will improve on this but until than best hope is fast lens.

 

Anyone travelling to places basking in glorious sunshine and indulging in daylight photography or able to use tripod on static subjects anything faster than f2.8 is wasteful.

 

Latest Q with fast 28mm lens is valid alternative to Summilux M 28mm if Al you want is 28mm but bringing it into this discussion is off topic, this discussion is about interchangeable M lenses, 28mm but also other FL. I believe Q has better ISO capability than M240 therefore M246 watch out.

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Herr Barnack

Herr Barnack

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Shallow depth of field is unintended consequence of fast lens design not design intent.

 

Back to basics, shooting in poor available light (darkness) involving moving people requires fast lens and highest ISO possible otherwise all we get is blur. High usable ISO with M240 is still limiting factor today - I don't mention M246 as I don't have one.  No doubt next generation of M camera or equivalent will improve on this but until than best hope is fast lens.

 

Anyone travelling to places basking in glorious sunshine and indulging in daylight photography or able to use tripod on static subjects anything faster than f2.8 is wasteful.

 

Latest Q with fast 28mm lens is valid alternative to Summilux M 28mm if Al you want is 28mm but bringing it into this discussion is off topic, this discussion is about interchangeable M lenses, 28mm but also other FL. I believe Q has better ISO capability than M240 therefore M246 watch out.

The Q does indeed have higher ISO than the M240/M-P; it goes to ISO 50,000.  With a full frame sensor, 24.2 MP and the 28mm f/1.7, it does make a compelling case for itself.

 

 

Anyone travelling to places basking in glorious sunshine and indulging in daylight photography or able to use tripod on static subjects anything faster than f2.8 is wasteful.

 

Can't argue with that.  In those scenarios, the Summilux 28 would be ridiculous overkill.

 

Anyone travelling to places basking in glorious sunshine and indulging in daylight photography or able to use tripod on static subjects anything faster than f2.8 is wasteful.

 

ISO 50,000 - Kee-riminy!!!   That certainly makes the Q a strong contender for a backup camera to the M240/M-P...

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hiepphotog

hiepphotog

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Carlos, you don't seem to care so much about weight and size factor. If it is so, the Lux 28 is a fine choice. But if you want to the sharpest image across the frame for landscape purpose, let's just say the Cron 28 is a better choice. I must clarify that I don't say the Lux 28 is inferior in every way, but certainly for a balanced resolution across the frame for landscape, it's not the answer. With that, I would say go for the more flexible option (i.e. Lux 28) if you can afford it and can tolerate the idea that the Cron and Elmarit 28 might have a little sharper corners.

 

Personally, I don't consider any 1.4 lens is a waste in any situation. While traveling, glorious sunshine and daylight photography are not the only types of photography  I would take. My goal so far has been incorporating a starry sky as the background of a city shot at night; it added another dimension to the picture, more so than the blank black sky or just some coincidental light polluted spots. For such landscape shot, a 1.4 lens is infinitely better than a slower lens. I think you just need to let your imagination run wild to realize the landscape use for a 1.4. Outside of landscape, 1.4 is rather useful for many other travel shots.

 

I attached here a shot that I shot with the ZM 15 at f/2.8. I would think that a 1.4 would enhance this picture further by capturing more stars and creating more of that pixie dust effect.

 

Phoenix Rising

 

14908554457_1295d2b500_h.jpg

 

 

Edit: By the way, in term of pure technical prowess, the ZM 35 1.4 is probably better than any Lux that you might consider. It is just a hair short from the 50 APO in term of sharpness, a coma performance that is even better than the 50 APO. If you're not a stickler for a 28, it might be your answer. I was set with the 50-28 deal, but this ZM made me changed my mind. I just hope Zeiss would announce a ZM 28/1.4 this coming Sept. 10th :D. That would make my day.

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rramesh

rramesh

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The only reason why you may need a fast lens is to reduce motion blur, especially in low light situations.

 

For a 28 and for landscape use, with a tripod, you don't need a fast lens. For street, you rarely have the time for close focusing a wide aperture, and with the high ISO of modern cameras, fast lenses are often unnecessary. 

 

Yes some will say, I need the bokeh of a f/1.4.

 

I think it is a bit rich for me. I am content with my Summicron. It's sharp, it's versatile and only slightly larger than the Elmarit. I bought it to go with my M9. If I had an M with the ISO of a Q, maybe the Elmarit would be enough for me.

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sml_photo

sml_photo

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Hmmm...back to my observation from yesterday.

I just checked again and it seems the 28mm Elmarit generally isn't in stock.  But the Summicron is.

And I know I've checked the B&H and Adorama sites since at least July...maybe earlier.

Has anyone heard anything about availability?  I've asked some retailers over the past few weeks and there is no indication from Leica.  Seems like it's a popular lens.  I wonder why it has such limited availability recently.  Does that indicate anything about the lens or is it just a retail quirk?

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Herr Barnack

Herr Barnack

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(From algrove): 

 

...I often just increase my ISO and feel happy having the $4k difference in my pocket, either in cash or in the form of a 28/1.7 Q.

I'm watching this thread...and I must say, I'm beginning to agree with this thinking more and more.  That's an awful lot of  money for a small and likely imperceptible difference in the final image.  That is, we're comparing Leica glass to Leica glass....there is no bad choice.

 

Fast lenses, for me, are just for depth of field control nowadays given the high ISO capabilities of modern cameras.  And f2.8 is plenty wide enough for a 28mm lens in most cases, I would think.

I checked this AM and the Elmarit is even smaller and lighter than my 35mm Summicron.  Wow...THAT is appealing.

Looking forward to continuing input on this thread.  I find it very interesting to read people's opinions on this specific topic with this focal length.

(By the way, the 28 Elmarit seems to be out of stock at many places including B&H.  B&H hasn't had them in stock since July sometime....maybe even earlier in the year than that!  I wonder why...??)

As I have read the posts that others have made over the past three days, my thinking on the 28mm M lens range has started to shift.  I find myself more in agreement with the thoughts that sml_photo offers (above).

 

The Elmarit is one hell of a great little lens for the money.  At f/2.8 it is not exactly as slow as molasses on a cold winter day, either.  The Summicron offers more speed, reasonable size/weight and stellar IQ - and at a price that is within reason (by Leica M lens standards).  I am starting to think in terms of the Summicron being the lens that offers the best of everything in the 28mm focal length.  The Summilux looks to be a masterpiece - but at $5950 USD, it is a bridge too far (for me and apparently many others) in terms of price.  Unless it begins to rain gold doubloons in my back yard, that is. 

 

Regarding what appears to be a shortage of the Elmarit 28 at some Leica dealers, it may be that other Leica M shooters are beginning to see the fantastic value of this lens and are snapping it up. 

 

Or it could be that Leica is preparing to release a redesigned Summicron 28, since the current version is getting to be long in the tooth, having been on the market since 2000.  If that is the case, dealers will want to clear out what will soon be the old version of the 28 'cron (this is just speculation on my part, though).

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sml_photo

sml_photo

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Note that the Amazon quote does not reflect the rebate price of $1980 which is probably why it is available.

And the other one is a used lens.

Thanks.

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sml_photo

sml_photo

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If you want one bad enough they are out there. Contact the seller listed in Amazon and ask.

Yes, I know.  But my point was simply that they are not readily available.  Not in stock at the major retailers for quite some time.  And I am wondering if there is any significance to that.

Thx.

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Jeff S

Jeff S

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As I have read the posts that others have made over the past three days, my thinking on the 28mm M lens range has started to shift.  I find myself more in agreement with the thoughts that sml_photo offers (above).

 

 

In the time since your initial post, assuming you couldn't find a dealer or someone else in NY to let you experiment, you could have rented and started shooting with the Elmarit and Summicron to see for yourself.   In a few weeks, the Summilux will be available.  http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/leica/lenses/wide-angle

 

Or you can entertain thoughts here for weeks...or months....and still not know what fits your needs and preferences.

 

Jeff

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jdlaing

jdlaing

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Yes, I know.  But my point was simply that they are not readily available.  Not in stock at the major retailers for quite some time.  And I am wondering if there is any significance to that.

Thx.

Could be two reasons. Either they are quick sellers or don't sell enough to continually stock. When I went looking for one a while back my local dealer didn't have any and told me nobody askes for it.

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semi-ambivalent

semi-ambivalent

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Yes, I know.  But my point was simply that they are not readily available.  Not in stock at the major retailers for quite some time.  And I am wondering if there is any significance to that.

Thx.

Perhaps Leica's batching methodology contributes to this. At some point 28 Elmarit ASPH'es will be in plentiful supply and they'll be a relatively large jump in their serial numbers. Those 'luxes, too, will get here soon enough. Until then I'd avoid trying to read the tea leaves; there might not be any. :)

 

s-a

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sml_photo

sml_photo

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Perhaps Leica's batching methodology contributes to this. At some point 28 Elmarit ASPH'es will be in plentiful supply and they'll be a relatively large jump in their serial numbers. Those 'luxes, too, will get here soon enough. Until then I'd avoid trying to read the tea leaves; there might not be any. :)

 

s-a

Good point!  I think we sometimes put more thought into their strategy than they do! 

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jrp

jrp

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If you are shooting from f/4 and above, the lenses will be hard to distinguish from each other in sharpness terms, except perhaps in the corners.  Summicron has a gentler rendering than the others, however, which are more contrasty.  At f2.8 and below the Summilux wins by a clear margin; the micro contrast is higher than the other lenses.  Conclusion: if you are shooting landscapes in broad daylight, size is the more important difference, as others have said (because you can, to some extent, adjust the contrast in post).  With the other lenses, you are paying for the option value of being able to shoot at a higher shutter speed.  (For what it's worth, I love my Summilux, despite the fact that it is less well behaved at night than the Summicron.)

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Herr Barnack

Herr Barnack

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 ...(For what it's worth, I love my Summilux, despite the fact that it is less well behaved at night than the Summicron.)

 

Obviously, the safest course of action is to just buy one of each of the 28mm M lenses; that way, you will always have exactly what you need (except money).  :D

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semi-ambivalent

semi-ambivalent

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Summicron has a gentler rendering than the others, however, which are more contrasty.

 

And yet Puts says, at least, this (speaking of the 28mm Elmarit ASPH):

 

"Overall the fingerprint of this lens wide open and at smaller apertures leans a bit in the direction of the Zeiss philosophy of lenses: reduction of flare and distortion is of more importance than striving for the maximum contrast wide open. If you need that high contrast performance wide open, Leica offers the Summicron 2/28mm ASPH."

 

The 28mm Summicron appears to be a classically great lens; I don't have one but I accept the consensus. But this is Leica, all their lenses are great, using any definition of that word practical for the making of photographs, as opposed to discussing photography.

 

s-a

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