johnloumiles Posted August 16, 2015 Share #1 Posted August 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) I've been contemplating getting a used S2 for a long while now but I want to make sure it's for the right reasons. For me it's all about getting a better quality image file, I.e. The obvious difference between 120 film and 35 film. I'm looking for that extra tonality and depth you can only get from going bigger, but sometimes I don't see that huge of a difference between the S2 and the M9 files when looking online. The professional print work Leica puts out in their catalogs seems to show a difference but I don't know how much of that is having a professional post guy working on the photos. Same goes for the M9 media though. Those boxing photos in the M9 catalog look like they could have been shot with an S they're so good. As far as handling it's obvious where the S shines in a professional studio setting but that is a distant second for me as I'll be using Mamiya or Pentax lens for the foreseeable future. Is the S2 sensor that much better then the M9 or are they just different tools for different jobs that will give you similar results in non studio settings? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 16, 2015 Posted August 16, 2015 Hi johnloumiles, Take a look here M vs S - IQ or Handling . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
topoxforddoc Posted August 16, 2015 Share #2 Posted August 16, 2015 I use a M9 and a S(006) for my concert work and for the occasional wedding (groan!). They are different tools, but the IQ from the S is astounding, good though the M9 is. The M9 is more instinctive to use than the S, which is more deliberate. As an example, my normal set up for the pit now is the M9 and the 21/1.8 VC plus the S(006) and the 70/2.5. The frame rate from the S is slower. The AF is great and pretty quick, but not as quick as a prefocussed 21 with a decent DoF. Also the M9 is discrete; I can use it in the back of the tour bus, back stage in the green room etc. No-one minds. If your work is mostly studio or measured, such as landscape, architectural etc, then the S is your cup of tea. If you shoot more informally, street etc, then you may find the S a bit too cumbersome. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted August 16, 2015 Share #3 Posted August 16, 2015 My S2-P with S lenses beats my M lenses for situations where it works. You do not say what you shoot, daylight where you can hand hold at 1/500th or higher is needed IMO else some steadying device is needed. In a like for like all my S lenses (24 to 180) will beat the equivalent M asph lens on my M9, Monochrom or M(240). It is bigger and heavier to carry though ;-) john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share #4 Posted August 16, 2015 Thanks for the reply and your rundown, should have been more specific. I currently shoot the M9 with half a dozen lenses. It's my backbone, I use it for everything from fashion to street. The S would be for my more purposeful artistic work where I set up an entire scene to shoot. You might have missed it but I won't be using S lenses at first because of cost so autofocus doesn't matter. Again for me it's all about image quality , I don't care about the handling part. If the IQ is on par with 120 film in terms of tone and depth then I'm in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted August 16, 2015 Share #5 Posted August 16, 2015 I saw you were not using S lenses to start with, I have some Mamiya 645 (50 shift, 80/1.9 and 300/2.8) the first two are OK but not as good as S lenses latter has no equivalent. I found my M9 equivalent to Hasselblad negs for sharpness but not tonality, Monochrom was better fr tonality. However there is greater tonality and gradation from the S2 sensor IMO, but I usually use S lenses... john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 16, 2015 Author Share #6 Posted August 16, 2015 Hey John, I was replying to Topox about the lenses when he spoke about AF speed. Good info on the lenses, thank you. I figure there would be a huge drop off between the Summarits and a Mamiya or Pentax. I'm sure I'd slowly move over to the S lenses in time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted August 16, 2015 Share #7 Posted August 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) My short time with the Leica S the AF is fantastic and as far as IQ is concerned it's definitely better than the M and MM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
topoxforddoc Posted August 16, 2015 Share #8 Posted August 16, 2015 I've just looked at your website. You'll have no problems using a S for your work, as most of it is set up outside in the Californian sunshine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest NEIL-D-WILLIAMS Posted August 16, 2015 Share #9 Posted August 16, 2015 California??? Scotland/Malaysia Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 17, 2015 Author Share #10 Posted August 17, 2015 Thanks Topox, yeah it's always bright and blue out here. I actually found a barely used S2 that I couldn't pass up. Selling some of my M gear to finance this new expedition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted August 17, 2015 Share #11 Posted August 17, 2015 I've been contemplating getting a used S2 for a long while now but I want to make sure it's for the right reasons. For me it's all about getting a better quality image file, I.e. The obvious difference between 120 film and 35 film. I'm looking for that extra tonality and depth you can only get from going bigger, but sometimes I don't see that huge of a difference between the S2 and the M9 files when looking online. The professional print work Leica puts out in their catalogs seems to show a difference but I don't know how much of that is having a professional post guy working on the photos. Same goes for the M9 media though. Those boxing photos in the M9 catalog look like they could have been shot with an S they're so good. As far as handling it's obvious where the S shines in a professional studio setting but that is a distant second for me as I'll be using Mamiya or Pentax lens for the foreseeable future. Is the S2 sensor that much better then the M9 or are they just different tools for different jobs that will give you similar results in non studio settings? I shoot almost entirely with my S2 in studio currently. Previously I have done that with the M9 and then M (typ 240). I have shot with the M and S2 side by side in identical conditions (hard daylight and studio). I have the best (modern designs) lenses for the M system and the 70 & 120 for the S2. I can't comment about other lens brands, only about what each Leica system can do as a system. Certainly other combinations and systems can and do produce excellent results too. I'm commenting just on a direct side by side comparison of the two Leica systems I have. So much depends on what you use your cameras for of course. I wouldn't choose the S system for street or travel photography for example. I don't think that you can reliably judge anything by comparing on line images. looking closely on a high end monitor or at quality prints is much more instructive. These are the differences that I have observed where I have done my part with correct exposure and focus. The S system has noticeably larger dynamic range evident in retaining detail and tone from the brightest skin or white garments through to deep shadow or black clothing. It resolves the tiniest of detail even better than the M. The Auto White Balance appears to be more accurate for my taste although this is insignificant in practice (shooting DNG). practical depth of field is less as you would expect. Anecdotally at least a stop in my experience. Default colour rendering from the camera appears more natural/restrained for my taste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 18, 2015 Author Share #12 Posted August 18, 2015 Thanks Geoff, I actually just purchased a mint S2 (original owner estimates less then 1000 actuations) after selling my M6 and a couple lenses. I was going to think about it for a while but I just couldn't let such a pristine copy slip by. We'll see if i made the right decision but I doubt I will be disappointed as my uses which are purely artistic and fashion related. I've never been as excited to get a camera as I am with this one. I really think it will allow me to open doors creatively that I wouldn't be able to achieve otherwise. These are the differences that I have observed where I have done my part with correct exposure and focus. The S system has noticeably larger dynamic range evident in retaining detail and tone from the brightest skin or white garments through to deep shadow or black clothing. It resolves the tiniest of detail even better than the M. The Auto White Balance appears to be more accurate for my taste although this is insignificant in practice (shooting DNG). practical depth of field is less as you would expect. Anecdotally at least a stop in my experience.Default colour rendering from the camera appears more natural/restrained for my taste. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterv Posted August 18, 2015 Share #13 Posted August 18, 2015 Congratulations, John! Very good info on the IQ of the S system here. I've been a happy owner of an S2-P now for 2,5 years and I'm just extremely pleased with the files I get from the S system. I hope you enjoys your camera as much as I and most others here do! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
albertknappmd Posted August 18, 2015 Share #14 Posted August 18, 2015 I have the M240 and the S (typ006). They are two different animals but for your purposes, the S is the one! Albert :rolleyes: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted August 25, 2015 Share #15 Posted August 25, 2015 A little late on this but I today is a rain day (hurricane Kilo is starting to kick in the heavy rain) and I'm in for the afternoon and catching up on my forums. Yes, the IQ of the S(2) is superior to the M9 but I almost never walk more than a mile or two with this camera. It is far better suited for the studio. When I was younger I'd think nothing of packing a Linhof Technika kit in my backpack and heading out for a few days. But that was then. Sigh... Still, I do take the S2 out for a short hike sometimes adding a M9 with a 21. But mostly these days I just take my M9 and MM with a few lenses when I'm out and about. The S2 IQ is as good or better than a 4x5 and better than the M9. And the B&W conversions are better than the Monochrom (MM). But there is also the enjoyability factor. I love grabbing my Monochrom and a 50 Summicron and walking on the beach for a few hours. A little sun and shooting a few tourist makes for a nice morning. And traveling with a M9 with 35/90 lenses is the only way to go. I don't enjoy taking the S2 kit on trips. But if someone is paying for the shoot... well I eat my Wheaties and sweat a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share #16 Posted August 25, 2015 Thanks for your input, it really is all about the image quality for me. The S could be the size of a 4'x6' camera and I still probably use it for most everything, I have no qualms with carrying it anywhere. In fact I'm imagine my M9 will be collecting dust in the immediate future. I could say the M is better for travel but I actually do a lot of my artistic work abroad because it gives me access to so many new locations, I'll probably just lug both. S2 arrives tomorrow; kid on chirstmas eve level of excitement! A little late on this but I today is a rain day (hurricane Kilo is starting to kick in the heavy rain) and I'm in for the afternoon and catching up on my forums. Yes, the IQ of the S(2) is superior to the M9 but I almost never walk more than a mile or two with this camera. It is far better suited for the studio. When I was younger I'd think nothing of packing a Linhof Technika kit in my backpack and heading out for a few days. But that was then. Sigh... Still, I do take the S2 out for a short hike sometimes adding a M9 with a 21. But mostly these days I just take my M9 and MM with a few lenses when I'm out and about. The S2 IQ is as good or better than a 4x5 and better than the M9. And the B&W conversions are better than the Monochrom (MM). But there is also the enjoyability factor. I love grabbing my Monochrom and a 50 Summicron and walking on the beach for a few hours. A little sun and shooting a few tourist makes for a nice morning. And traveling with a M9 with 35/90 lenses is the only way to go. I don't enjoy taking the S2 kit on trips. But if someone is paying for the shoot... well I eat my Wheaties and sweat a little. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xiaubauu2009 Posted August 25, 2015 Share #17 Posted August 25, 2015 congratz! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Likaleica Posted August 29, 2015 Share #18 Posted August 29, 2015 In terms of factors related to camera/lens the S clearly has better IQ than M. However, it is difficult for me to get consistently sharp images with the S hand held. So when I am going on a shoot I think in terms of whether or not I can use a sturdy tripod. If the answer is yes, it's the S. If a tripod is inconvenient it's the M. When traveling abroad it's almost always the M due to size, weight, and I can use my small travel tripod if necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John McMaster Posted August 29, 2015 Share #19 Posted August 29, 2015 I find it whether I can get 1/500th @ f5.6 (S2-P @ 160) or better sort of brightness, was an issue in Wellington but not so much so in Le Midi ;-) john Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnloumiles Posted August 30, 2015 Author Share #20 Posted August 30, 2015 Yeah I don't even know why I questioned that they might be similar IQ wise. In my limited time with the S there really is no comparison. I've been blown away with quality. As far as shutter speed I've gotten away with 1/125 but the lenses were the short, light mamiyas so that may have something to do with it. Thanks for all the feedback. The S forum is really chill. In terms of factors related to camera/lens the S clearly has better IQ than M. However, it is difficult for me to get consistently sharp images with the S hand held. So when I am going on a shoot I think in terms of whether or not I can use a sturdy tripod. If the answer is yes, it's the S. If a tripod is inconvenient it's the M. When traveling abroad it's almost always the M due to size, weight, and I can use my small travel tripod if necessary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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