008...

[Winedemonium]

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Just star gazing and armchair CEOing here, as we sometimes like to do on this forum.

S 007 presents a problem for Leica in the medium format market as we know. It's a year almost since the announcement and word is sales will either be very soft, or Leica will have to slash prices.

That's not to criticise the camera unfairly. Having just bought the 006 (albeit at the sub $6k recent deep discount) I love the camera. Eventually, when the 007 is deep discounted, I may buy that to replace it. So I am writing this as a user, if only a very recent one...

I was thinking about 008, but my thoughts quickly sidestepped the linear spec path. I wonder if it might not benefit Leica to change direction a bit with that line, or come up with a second tier S. The sort of camera I have in mind is a lighter, more compact medium format mirrorless body with EVF. It would take the S lens line (surely broadening the appeal of the S lenses would help defray their cost to Leica and to us), and with it the S adaptors for V, P67, C645, M645, H. Priced around the level of the current M, or around the level of Pentax's 645Z, but above the rumoured forthcoming interchangeable Q/M hybrid.

I'm interested for two reasons -
1. I would be interested in using one alongside my 006 (I see a place for both)
2. Like all S users here I have invested in the system (those lenses ain't cheap and unlike the M lenses, need electronic governing from the body to work), so I don't want to see it go the way of the R. It needs to be profitable, and given there seems to be some resistance amongst some professionals in the target market, perhaps broadening the appeal of the system might help.

Thoughts?

Edited August 11, 2015 by Winedemonium

[gpwhite]

It is true that EVF are zoomable, and, therefore, one can achieve more precise focus reliably than using an OVF. But I do not feel that EVF match the feel for the light or the lens character that OVF offers. Just my view.

 

It would be very interesting to know how many S 007 pieces Leica needs to sell to cover its burdened unit costs. I would not be surprised if the body generates a gross margin, at the Leica AG-Wetzlar level, of 66%. Under the umbrella created by Hasselblad pricing, Leica may not need many S's to keep the S lens business going.

 

Perhaps Michael Hussman or Jaap, who bring us some Leica tidbits from behind the curtain, might have thoughts about this cost analysis? I also guess that Leica is learning from the S lenses about how to "improve" production design and cost (as opposed to nuances related to purely optical design) for future FF lenses. If the S line breaks even and provides an effective skunkwerke for the brand's bread-and-butter FF lenses, then all is happy in Wetzlar.

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[Winedemonium]

I agree with what you say about 'feel', and the S's OVF is a dream window compared to every SLR viewfinder I've tried to date. I guess I have been spooked a little by the combination of Lloyd Chamber's focusing issues (and my own, limited and less properly tested mis-focus results with the 100/2), as well as a realisation that I might not be able to hit such fine focus manually either. 

 

I should, at least, go get the Leica S microprism screen. I suspect that will help me a lot of manual focus (or 'eye' confirmation of AF).

 

Yes, it would be interesting to know about the S profitability. Seems like a huge amount of R&D went into that system. My thoughts were coffee-fueled this morning! But for medium format, Leica's S lenses are widely renowned, yet the appeal of the camera itself more limited. I just thought perhaps an alternate system, or a means to make the body more attractively priced might not broaden the appeal of the lenses (while being careful not to harm the brand).

 

An alternative scenario at some point might be another camera manufacturer reverse engineering the S mount (like Leica has for C645 and H lenses)...

[ynp]

Maybe you are right and a lighter backup camera for the S lenses is needed.

 

I'd be happy to open my wallet if the rumored Q/T based AF 24x36mm hybrid or whatever would be able to accept the S lenses.

 

Than the landscapers will be able to compare their Zeiss Otis (Oti?) and Batis (Bati?) with the S lenses and have loads of fun.

 

And if there is an eye recognition system...

[hoppyman]

(Crop) Manual focus with the accessory split image/microprism collar screen  640 ISO available light hand held S2 APO Macro Summarit S 120 @f/2.8
I used the bottom eyelid.
Is there a source for the word that the typ 007 sales will be very soft or Leica will have to slash prices? I'm not aware of that. We don't even have any to buy as yet!
 

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Edited August 11, 2015 by hoppyman

[Winedemonium]

Is there a source for the word that the typ 007 sales will be very soft or Leica will have to slash prices?

 

 

No authoritive source at my end - just chit chat with a number of dealers here. Q sales doing very well here and are backed up into September (I sold mine second hand without loss), and there is much a flutter about the Q/M derivative announcements that are anticipated. If it is along Q lines it is expected to do well here. Last year a lot of grey market dealers were carrying small amounts of S inventory, but now there is virtually none - no one wanting to hold it, and not much activity in the last 6 months I was told. No enquiries to dealers I spoke to for pre-ordering the 007. Of course this is grey market chit chat, not authoritive, and certainly not coming from the official authorised dealers here. But I did also hear that S/2 sales used to be very good in Hong Kong for visiting mainland Chinese customers looking for high value "gifts". Since President Xi's anti-corruption drive began in earnest, a lot of products that have been bought as prestigious gifts have seen demand dwindle (including super fancy wines like Chateau Lafite in my market).

 

But fair play - my statement is nothing more than heresay. I'm not the one looking at Leica pre-orders book for the 007, so we shall have to see.

 

 

Nice photograph! Nice and sharp too. May I ask what sort of shutter speeds you are managing handheld with this lens? 

[Manolo Laguillo]

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I don't see a problem, concerning weight, with the S body, but with the S lenses.

The S body is ok as it is: its optical view finder, that classic SLR feeling, is for me the key for my loving it.

[hoppyman]

No authoritive source at my end - just chit chat with a number of dealers here.

 

Q sales doing very well here and are backed up into September (I sold mine second hand without loss), and there is much a flutter about the Q/M derivative announcements that are anticipated. If it is along Q lines it is expected to do well here. Last year a lot of grey market dealers were carrying small amounts of S inventory, but now there is virtually none - no one wanting to hold it, and not much activity in the last 6 months I was told. No enquiries to dealers I spoke to for pre-ordering the 007. Of course this is grey market chit chat, not authoritive, and certainly not coming from the official authorised dealers here. But I did also hear that S/2 sales used to be very good in Hong Kong for visiting mainland Chinese customers looking for high value "gifts". Since President Xi's anti-corruption drive began in earnest, a lot of products that have been bought as prestigious gifts have seen demand dwindle (including super fancy wines like Chateau Lafite in my market).

 

But fair play - my statement is nothing more than heresay. I'm not the one looking at Leica pre-orders book for the 007, so we shall have to see.

 

 

Nice photograph! Nice and sharp too. May I ask what sort of shutter speeds you are managing handheld with this lens? 

 

I don't know much about the Hong Kong market at all.  I did actually buy my APO Macro Summarit 120 there from one of the Leica stores though when I was there not too long ago. I'm surprised to read about grey market sales of the S equipment though. It doesn't happen here in Australia. We represent only about 2% of Leica Camera's world market I think.

I'm sure that lots of people are potentially interested in the Q and any speculated future systems of course. I wouldn't think that those are S system customers myself, unless this is about owning or giving as 'gifts' any luxury or prestige goods I guess?

 

I just have my Leica equipment to use because I think that the lenses are superb.

Over a number of years using M cameras I have acquired a very good range of the best lenses. For me my S2 is just for studio and just two lenses ( 70 and 120) cover 95% of what I like to do there.

 

The particular image that I cropped and shared in this thread was shot in just reflected available light at 1/125 f/2.8 ISO640. It was just an unexpected opportunity during a studio workshop day. In the very limited amount of lower available light scenes that I've shot (with S2) I haven't reliably made sharp images at slower speeds than that.

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