jaapv Posted July 18, 2015 Share #41 Posted July 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just for the record - quite a bit has been sorted out in PMs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Curious moderation. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
pico Posted July 18, 2015 Share #42 Posted July 18, 2015 The politics become toxic when name-calling, stereotyping, and innuendo occur, no matter how sophisticated it seems to be. Information, on the other hand, if it is true, or as true as a thoughtful author can determine, can be very helpful, especially when it disabuses name-calling, stereotyping and innuendo (without using the same devices). For example even in casual conversations over lunch with academics I have heard radical radio talk cliches such as "culture of laziness". Such a phrase requires some daunting intellectual *modern rhetoric to counter: it is that evil. I do not have the talent to counter such. Usually I walk away to never return. To me the Greek crisis is a study which can, hopefully, reveal deep-seated (but not intractable) subtle, and largely unknown causes. I wish there could be an equivalent to Silent Spring exposing international banking practices in a way that the average person could understand. *modern rhetoric study as evinced, for example, in the work Just Silences by Marianne Constable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted July 18, 2015 Share #43 Posted July 18, 2015 In my view this is a problem with Internet forums in general. People say things to their fellow forum posters that they would never say to a person, in person! For example, the correcting of a person's grammar; attacking a man's religion, politics (of course); tedious correcting of misstatements of facts; a seemingly constant lecturing... There have been times when I've sworn I would never come back to this forum due to the rudeness expressed on the forum. But I enjoy Leica photography, and that keeps me coming back in spite of the experience being sometimes bitter. The frustrating thing here, though, is that despite discussing politics, there had been no trace of rudeness in the thread that was closed as far as I'm aware. And that is why this conversation is continuing, I suppose; because now it is assumed that there was rudeness or impoliteness of some sort, and so a sense of bitterness remains where really it is quite inappropriate to the actual circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted July 18, 2015 Share #44 Posted July 18, 2015 Speaking as the author of infamous post #9 I want everyone here to know (if you care, and if it matters), I have PM'd Jaapv moments ago. I apologized for those remarks I now feel were out of line, re-iterated why I made other remarks and stood my ground on still others. I'm done with it. s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2015 Share #45 Posted July 18, 2015 I was not aware that the UK was a Euro member in the 1970ies. World events are fine, and as the moderators have sometimes read a newspaper they are well aware that politics in general can be part of the event, reason why we try and apply the rules leniently in such cases. However, when the original subject is lost in a fundamental political discussion, we have no choice. That is what happens posting from a phone This is the post I meant, my apologies for any confusion. It was post #10. I cannot find any post by Semi-Ambivalent here...#9 was by Manoleica. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 18, 2015 Share #46 Posted July 18, 2015 I was not aware that the UK was a Euro member in the 1970ies. This was only part of my Post.. And yes I was on duty & used my iPhone, How dare you denigrate the use of any mobile unit.. Grammar & spelling, istakes happen from whatever unit the Post origanted from.. (Education/country/et.etc..) That is what happens posting from a phone This is the post I meant, my apologies for any confusion. Seems to me like your kitchen is too hot........and so forth.. L Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 18, 2015 Share #47 Posted July 18, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Eh? That is a copy of my own post, and I miscounted on my phone...That is all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted July 18, 2015 Share #48 Posted July 18, 2015 Peter, I stand corrected. I was not writing about this thread in specific. But more about the tone of the forum in general. Which I think has improved of late. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 18, 2015 Share #49 Posted July 18, 2015 Mano -> jaapv ~ My Apologies (I misread) ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
semi-ambivalent Posted July 18, 2015 Share #50 Posted July 18, 2015 That is what happens posting from a phone This is the post I meant, my apologies for any confusion. It was post #10. I cannot find any post by Semi-Ambivalent here...#9 was by Manoleica. Jaapv, My PM to you/Mods was about post 9 in the "Reading Material for Greece" in Barnacks Bar. The post is locked/deleted. I looked at "Curious Moderation" as a response thread to that earlier thread. This confusion aside, that post #9 is still closed so my PM to you as a Mod is still apropo. Regards, s-a Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 18, 2015 Share #51 Posted July 18, 2015 It seems this set of Posts has gone every which way -- Sad (1) The Greeks need more help - not austerity! (2) Thatcherism created more hate in the Uk than at any other time in recent history.. (3) If I use my camera to photograph a politician, and subsequently show it on the Forum, is that a political statement? (4) Life's too short for all this bl dY CraP... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted July 18, 2015 Share #52 Posted July 18, 2015 Is it time for a group hug yet … ? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted July 18, 2015 Share #53 Posted July 18, 2015 Oh Yeh... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 18, 2015 Share #54 Posted July 18, 2015 Peter, I stand corrected. I was not writing about this thread in specific. But more about the tone of the forum in general. Which I think has improved of late. Jeff Jeffry, in any Internet discussion, it is important to be a little thick skinned. People say things they haven't really thought through in ways that often given meanings they didn't intend - or, they're just behaving badly, saying things they would never dream of saying in person. If you become discouraged, bitter, or even angry, you're just playing to the lowest common denominator. If you leave, we all lose. I agree with Peter on this. I actually want to hear the opinions of people here on more diverse topics than Leica photography. That's why we have the Bar. If others don't want to have those discussions, don't go to the Bar. Limiting discussion to avoid the possibility of conflict makes the forum rather dry, and won't avoid conflict (there's plenty of conflict on other photography sites). On the other parts of the forum, we get conflict and rudeness relatively frequently. Self moderation seems to be working quite well. An immoderate response to an immoderate post (whatever the topic) will always inflame. A considered response (even if you disagree with everything in it) is hard to get angry about. As we get to know more about each other, we understand our differences - shutting discussion down has the opposite effect. Ever noticed that that the posters who annoy are often new to the forum. After a while, they learn to be more respectful, or they leave ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted July 18, 2015 Share #55 Posted July 18, 2015 I don't understand the strength of opinion about politics, forum rules and moderators' actions in Barnack's Bar. I come to this forum because there are many people with real expertise and experience about Leicas. But I contribute to and read Barnack's Bar because it makes good peripheral entertainment. Do I expect Leica owners to offer any particularly valuable insight into politics? No! Am I bothered that there are forum rules, implemented with integrity and collective, subjective judgement, which might on occasions be wrong? Not in the slightest. If Barnack's Bar didn't exist, would it change my view of or participation in the forum? An infinitesimal amount. If I want unmoderated discussion and free speech on politics or anything else, I will go to a pub or a political meeting where I can see people's expressions when I talk to them. Having seen other photography forums degenerate into flamewars where the survivors are those with the thickest skins, I am delighted that here there are rules and volunteers prepared to administer them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted July 18, 2015 Share #56 Posted July 18, 2015 In my view this is a problem with Internet forums in general. People say things to their fellow forum posters that they would never say to a person, in person! For example, the correcting of a person's grammar; attacking a man's religion, politics (of course); tedious correcting of misstatements of facts; a seemingly constant lecturing... There have been times when I've sworn I would never come back to this forum due to the rudeness expressed on the forum. But I enjoy Leica photography, and that keeps me coming back in spite of the experience being sometimes bitter. True. But my attitude is to only to write what I would say in person, having a frank discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffry Abt Posted July 18, 2015 Share #57 Posted July 18, 2015 Jeffry, in any Internet discussion, it is important to be a little thick skinned.That is precisely my point. Why should anyone say things on the internet that he would be ashamed of saying to a persons face to face? Is being thick skinned the solution? I think, rather, we should each be more self-governing and treat one another as we would want to be treated. In no way have I lived up to what I've just proposed, but I think it is a worthy goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted July 18, 2015 Share #58 Posted July 18, 2015 I agree entirely, Jeffry. But hoe do you deal with those who don't? Or those just having a bad day? It's a short road to misery if you respond to people who don't know how to behave - they're not worth the time; time you never get back, and it's worse if you've let them upset you. Lead from the front, and give people the opportunity to do the right thing. Anything else means your life will be wasted on those who don't warrant it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted July 19, 2015 Share #59 Posted July 19, 2015 If I may - perhaps either this thread, as the now de facto "greek crisis" thread, should go back to Barnack's, or the original thread should be re-opened. "About the Leica Forum" is really not the place for the off-Leica discussion in either case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwarren Posted July 19, 2015 Share #60 Posted July 19, 2015 I strongly resent the implications of personal bias. If my integrity is called into question I will step down. Bias & integrity juxtaposed: One might or might not have integrity, but we all have unconscious bias. It's part of the human condition... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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