"no professional style cameras allowed"

[CheshireCat]

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I just called the guy out because he was throwing the M under the bus and came off like he knew what pros use or not.

 

False. I just replied to a question by a forum member asking me why I think the M is not a pro camera.

Then you posted your "only people earning 100% of their income from photography can say what a pro camera is" out-of-topic aggression.

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[jaapv]

Possibly, but "professional camera" is an undefined concept and can basically only mean "a camera that a professional can use", making event organizers look a bit stupid, as they mean " a camera that can make good enough images to compete with our marketing shots" which nowadays is any cellphone.

[Naper]

I was refused entry into an event with my M240. Strict policy of no removable lenses. After a lengthy discussion with a supervisor I was allowed entry. 

[Ai_Print]

False. I just replied to a question by a forum member asking me why I think the M is not a pro camera.

Then you posted your "only people earning 100% of their income from photography can say what a pro camera is" out-of-topic aggression.

Yeah, but you gave replies that would not concern an event security person, I think you took liberties that only served your agenda. Edited July 1, 2015 by Ai_Print

[keithlaban.co.uk]

I have to laugh, every time I go through security at Athens airport my M240 gets pulled for x-ray but my M9 doesn't. The difference? The M240 has a RRS hand grip. Go figure.

[vmoritz]

I would take the M, they are not seen by most security guards as a "real camera". Last year I was asked not to take photos in a Melbourne city shopping complex with my 5D, 24-70 lens. Today I was taking photos there with the all black M-P and had a very nice discussion with the security guard about why the escalator I was photographing was not working. He didn't even mention the camera, though I was standing next to him snapping away.......

 

Maybe I was just lucky...

[Herr Barnack]

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Edited July 2, 2015 by Carlos Danger

[JonPB]

I can't speak to anyone else's experience, but I can speak from my own experience as a (former) communication manager (and previously as a guard) for a security company that did work more than a few concerts and events. U.S. security company, U.S. venues (multiple), and mostly U.S. organizers. I've worked the pit; I've worked the door; I've worked with the promoters and the performers. I've been the PIC when a guest wants to complain about not being able to take photos with their banned photo equipment. So here's my $0.02.

 

When something is restricted, it is always because that item could cause someone to lose money. The obvious answer is that someone could get hurt and sue the performers, promoters, or the venue, but that's like a tripod or a massive lens, which we're not talking about. The next obvious answer is that they're protecting the other patrons, whose enjoyment of the event is not infrequently impaired by someone who's thinking about something other than the performance. E.g., someone trying to take the perfect photo can be just as annoying as someone who is talking on their phone, and security can deal with both of those circumstances but cameras can be dealt with at the door while phones are ubiquitous. This aspect is mostly about convenience. Most promoters and performers -- both of whom can usually impose their own limits -- now recognize that cameras are also ubiquitous in cell phones, and that people who bring dedicated cameras are some of the biggest supporters of the events, so moderate cameras then became acceptable...because otherwise is inconvenient. Still, disturbing other patrons is the primary concern of promoters and performers. They make their money by giving people a good time, and behavior that disrupts that simply isn't tolerable.

 

Now, we get to the press. This isn't just about the photogs in the pit, rather it is about the publications they work for or sell to. When a promoter relies on publications for advertising the event, will rely on those publications to advertise future events, and those publications feel that they've been undermined by amateur photos, then there's a problem that I believe is the second primary reason "professional" cameras are generally not allowed. 

 

That said, they really haven't thought much about it. In their minds, people should be there to experience the performance, and everything else is a nuisance. Patrons are punters, there to make money off of; not all of them are that blunt about it, but that is their business and their profession. Which is to say, the rules vary widely and are mostly arbitrary. Trying to get a good reason for a specific rule is no better than trying to persuade the sun to set a little bit earlier. But if they've banned something, it is because they think it'll cost them money, reasonably or not.

 

The best way to find out the rules in advance will be by contacting whoever is in charge of issuing press credentials to the performance. The venue and the security probably won't know until the day of the performance. Don't ask the people who sell tickets. Ask the people who would issue a press pass. There's almost always a name, phone number, or email available for press inquiries. They'll probably have to ask someone else, but they'll be in the right circle to know whom to ask. And, if they can't answer immediately, you may be in a position to lobby for certain rules that favor your kit. On the other hand, after the guards have all met and been given their instructions (say, an hour before the gates open), the rules are set in stone and arguing won't get you anywhere. Sweet talking, yes; place the emphasis on the performance, not on your photography. Concealing your activity, maybe, but guards are trained to watch for suspicious behavior. Arguing, no; better to make a show of compliance and get back to what you were doing, but do try to avoid that particular guard as they will remember having that discussion with you and they most likely will be empowered to immediately eject you, and everyone will thank them for it.

 

So, be nice to the people who are trying to enforce the rules, emphasize that you're there for the love of the performance, mount the smallest lens you have when you go through the door, emphasize that you don't have a flash (which bears pointing out; the viewfinder looks like a flash lens at first glance to many); ideally, find out the rules beforehand and obey them in spirit if not to the letter.

 

For what it may be worth, I met all kinds of people in the security industry, from MENSA members to those with clinical intelligence impairment. Some people liked the flexible hours. Some people were just in need of a job as soon as possible. Some people just like being on their feet and talking to people. Some were really nice, some were really mean, and most were somewhere in between. Almost always, they don't have the best answers because they've received maybe 10 minutes of training and have made up the rest as they go along. Just like every other career, from the people who wash office toilets to those who shape national fiscal policy, it takes all types and judging them before you get to know them is a recipe for disaster.

 

tl;dr -- contact the event's press manager and ask. If email, print it out and bring it with you.

 

Hope this helps. Cheers,

Jon

[rscheffler]

Great post Jon! Thanks for the insight.

 

What I have in mind is less of an artist/performer thing. So I was never intending on taking any kind of long lens. My plan was to take a 28mm Summicron and that was it.

 

The venue is the Hard Rock hotel & casino in Las Vegas. My friend is a vendor at http://www.fetishandfantasyhalloweenball.com and http://www.fetishandfantasyexpo.com and is giving me some free passes.  I thought it would be a fun place to do some sort of street shooting kind of things and she also wanted me to document some of her work http://www.exoticanimalzoo.com Sounds like a fun way to spend Halloween to me.

 

Considering this additional info, and what you posted originally, my feeling as someone who photographs events for organizers, is the organizers are probably concerned about patrons being annoyed/inconvenienced by a camera mob scene taking away from the patrons' overall enjoyment of the event. I.e. 'pervs' stalking scantily dressed patrons, etc. I would guess the M will be OK, but how you use it will likely be more relevant. If you're an aggressive street shooter, getting in close, in people's faces, it could be a problem. But if everyone is snapping away on their phones, who knows. Seeing as how there is a dress code, it will probably help your cause if you show up in some outlandish costume to better blend in and show your enthusiasm for the event. It will probably cut you some slack. Maybe your friend can help you out with some creative body painting?

Edited July 11, 2015 by rscheffler

[wayanwolvie]

I always use same trick. Unmount the lens from your m body before you go inside the venue. Once inside (pass the bag scanning), then you can mount them back. Works 100% so far.

Edited July 20, 2015 by wayanwolvie

[jdlaing]

You guess wrong.

[Herr Barnack]

23 hours ago, Quarterpounder said:

I guess we all know that "professional" cameras are these DSLRs with huge grey or cream tele lenses operated by people in fishing vests who acutally have to make some money from it,  whereas Leica Ms are operated by people who made loadsamoney elsewhere (dentistry + law) and who are wearing that army coat and a beard.

"Professional cameras" are whatever the schmucks who are running the show say they are.  🙄

Edited October 14, 2024 by Herr Barnack

[dante]

I always imagined that "Pro-Style" would definitely include DSLRs and probably large mirrorless. Leica M would be on the bubble, since (to be honest) Ms to a non-camera person might just look like a retro novelty.

Anywhere your typical Leica M use case existed but you had worries about the camera, you could take a DLux, a Fuji X100, a Sony RX100 (or even RX1), or if you're into film, a Contax T. I mean, I'd take a Light L16, since it looks like a cell phone and has a native 75mm lens...

Edited October 15, 2024 by dante

[Dazzajl]

On 10/15/2024 at 4:46 AM, Quarterpounder said:

but the conundrum....leica users dont want to be -that guy- with the grey huge tele and the japanese thingy....but then of course leica cameras are -professional- cameras and not just mere toys for well off men in midlife crisis.

Not ‘just’ no.

I took my M8 and a couple of lenses to the Royal Albert Hall last week and had no problem at all at the bag search. 
 

For the most part, both the perception of and most common professional cameras fall in to two camps. For the over 40s it’s Canon or Nikon and under 40, it’s Sony. There are a few outliers that use Fuji or larger MF systems, because they’re more expensive but there’s not enough of us to even nudge the scales. 
 

In the context of the real world, I’d say that the M system is not professional or even really aimed at professional snappers. It exists mostly to be a luxury brand and both excels and dominates that arena. 

[GFW2-SCUSA]

17 hours ago, Dazzajl said:

In the context of the real world, I’d say that the M system is not professional or even really aimed at professional snappers. It exists mostly to be a luxury brand and both excels and dominates that arena. 

I think there are plenty of professional photographers using Leica. It can do anything a professional wants it to if he/she knows how and when to use it. 

My issue with the whole idea of "no professional cameras allowed" is the use of the word "professional".  It once meant someone who made a profession - like a medical doctor or clergy person. Now it is really meaningless as proven to me recently when I bought a new dustpan. On the sticker in large letters is declared itself "Professional Grade". I had never considered a dustpan to have a professional vs amateur status before. Of course I now use it with great pride and only for the best sweepings.