It's not too late for Leica to enter the prosumer DSLR market

[luigi bertolotti]

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 Apart macro-considerations on APS DSRL market , what sense such a camera would have, in sight of the traditional strong point (and cash cow) of Leica, i.e. lenses ?

 

- With due respect to the forum members who have hoped for years in the "R lenses solution" (which Leica partially provides), a Company can't base a new product on an old product line that is "still around".

- They cannot put again in production the (ok, amortized) R lenses... absurd for an APS camera.

- So, they would have to develop a new line, of course with AF... a costly/risky play considering that it ought to include lenses that capitalize the pluses of SLR (long teles, zooms) : see how slowly they are introducing their lenses for T...

 

At the end... I think that there is 0,01% chance they introduce such a camera : in case Panasonic would do, it would be a better strategy to make some "special" lenses for it. 

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[jaapv]

Would Panasonic enter a shrinking and overcrowded market? Rather unlikely imo.

[luigi bertolotti]

Would Panasonic enter a shrinking and overcrowded market? Rather unlikely imo.

+ 1

[earleygallery]

Assuming the statistics you've quoted accurately represent the market, by this reasoning Leica ought to abandon the CRF market because its market share is negligible.

 

The stats are produced by the industry so I would guess that they're accurate.

 

As Leica are the only makers of a digital rangefinder camera, they have 100% share of that particular market. It's a pin prick in relation to the overall market, but a profitable pin prick for Leica.

[earleygallery]

 Apart macro-considerations on APS DSRL market , what sense such a camera would have, in sight of the traditional strong point (and cash cow) of Leica, i.e. lenses ?

 

- With due respect to the forum members who have hoped for years in the "R lenses solution" (which Leica partially provides), a Company can't base a new product on an old product line that is "still around".

- They cannot put again in production the (ok, amortized) R lenses... absurd for an APS camera.

- So, they would have to develop a new line, of course with AF... a costly/risky play considering that it ought to include lenses that capitalize the pluses of SLR (long teles, zooms) : see how slowly they are introducing their lenses for T...

 

At the end... I think that there is 0,01% chance they introduce such a camera : in case Panasonic would do, it would be a better strategy to make some "special" lenses for it. 

 

Jaap,

 

This isn't about an R solution. But just as the T accepts R lenses it could utilze those legacy lenses too.

 

No, R lenses would be no platform for a new DSLR, a new range of AF lenses would be required.

 

Are they not introducing new lenses for the T because they can't, or is it because they simply won't sell enough (because of overall T sales?) to make it viable?

 

What has this got to do with Panasonic? You could also ask why haven't Panasonic entered the Medium Format market like the Leica S? It's irrelevant.

[wildlightphoto]

The stats are produced by the industry so I would guess that they're accurate.

 

As Leica are the only makers of a digital rangefinder camera, they have 100% share of that particular market. It's a pin prick in relation to the overall market, but a profitable pin prick for Leica.

 

Lies, damned lies, and statistics.

 

My point is that the size of the market share for a type of camera is irrelevant; what matters is the company's piece of that market share, i.e., it matters not that DSLRs are a bigger piece of the photography pie than mirrorless, only whether the company (Leica in this case) is adequately profitable (sufficient ROI) within that market segment.  The DSLR piece of the pie is very competitive with very small margins.  Better ROI can be found in a less-competetive market segment.

[hoppyman]

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What Doug said James 

On market shares, perhaps we are referring to different aspects in any case? I was referring to global trends for mirrorless market share to be  increasing. It appears that the Americas differ to some extent in that regard I guess. Depends on which statistics you look at.
But then Leica Camera exists in its particular market niches of course.

 

On the T, I have no idea how successful it is. It is an elegant object of desire and the images are excellent. It's not for my demographic though  and the X Vario dis-satisfied me too. The add on EVF is too clumsy for me in practice and the T controls don't suit my preferences. I want a great viewfinder built in, dials and simplicity. To me actually Fujifilm's XT1 is the best on the market in that respect, in fact.

In the end I'll just refer to what Stefan Daniel said to us way back in 2009 (on the R10 cancellation) paraphrasing.... It would cost too much, it wouldn't be competitive, why would we want to jump into that shark pool.

[luigi bertolotti]

Jaap,

 

This isn't about an R solution. But just as the T accepts R lenses it could utilze those legacy lenses too.

 

No, R lenses would be no platform for a new DSLR, a new range of AF lenses would be required.

 

Are they not introducing new lenses for the T because they can't, or is it because they simply won't sell enough (because of overall T sales?) to make it viable?

 

What has this got to do with Panasonic? You could also ask why haven't Panasonic entered the Medium Format market like the Leica S? It's irrelevant.

Ehm... James... you quote my post but address your post to Jaap.... anyway, my quoting of Panasonic was just a "collateral" thought when I considered what kind of effort would be, for Leica, to develop a line of lenses for a speculated APS DSLR (in my opinion, a costly project for a risky market); I simply thought that in case Pana would develop such a camera, with their own lenses line, Leica could, with rather low risk and using technology they have in house, develop some "out of crowd" lens like a prestige super WA or some fine apo tele fixed focal manual focus (but, admit, is sparse thinking... btw they did something similar, with no great success i thinx, for the m43 Panas...)

[ph.]

The focussing screen of an APC-SLR is rather small, but it can serve to frame and track your subject at the price of mechanics, prism and some precision adjustments. Using only the central part of R-optics seems a waste of size and weight.

 

A better avenue would seem to be a Fuji-like solution, an electronic viewfinder fitting into the space occupied by the rangefinder. Perhaps even slimming the obese M8\9\... body by eliminating the rear screen & sending the picture to the VF. Existing optics and adapters would continue to be used with the advantages of an SLR-like viewfinder. A disadvantage with an "always on" sensor might be more noise due to higher operating temperature and battery drain - depending on use.

 

If Leitz\Leica really would like their Ms to have a long life, they could make the back part exchangeable allowing new sensors with their electronics\B&W sensors\cheaper sensors\luxury sensors to be mounted as the need arises.

 

p

[luigi bertolotti]

....

If Leitz\Leica really would like their Ms to have a long life, they could make the back part exchangeable allowing new sensors with their electronics\B&W sensors\cheaper sensors\luxury sensors to be mounted as the need arises.

 

p

Eh...  this is an old dream, time to time speculated in the Forum... but won't happen : too much dependancy on external providers which cannot guarantee you (so much for a small customer like Leica) a longstanding fit to your standards... it was the idea around the DMR module, a failure despite its excellent IQ. 

[ramarren]

I have a very nice R system ... two Leicaflex SL bodies, an R8 body, and ten lenses. I bought a Sony A7 specifically because I wanted an FF digital camera to use with the R lenses ... I don't like cropping away the beautiful R rendering. The A7 worked well, but honestly I found the camera clunky to use and it didn't thrill me. I sold it. 

 

I've used the R lenses on the M-P typ 240 occasionally since I got that. They work well, but not so well that I'd use them much. The M-P works best with its own lenses, and with those it works very very well indeed. So well that I'm now thinking of the R system as mostly redundant. 

 

I also have Nikon film gear. I thought about adapting my R lenses all to Nikon mount but ... why? Why give up the auto diaphragm, coupled metering, etc? My hand-picked little kit of favorite Nikkors are well up to the task. It doesn't really make sense except in exceptional circumstances. 

 

Leica is surely done with the R system. The only question to me is whether to keep one around for nostalgia or just sell out the whole lot. If I kept one, it would be the black Leicaflex SL, 50/1.4, 90/2, 180/4 .. that's a nice setup. But how much would I use it, given I have the same thing (and more) with my Nikon F6? 

 

Hard stuff. It's likely best to let go of the R kit entirely, finish developing the M-P kit, and just do my photography. 

 

G

[Silver Fresco]

Ramarren, I'm in the same boat as you.

 

I'm just waiting to see if there is a Q interchangeable in the future. That ridiculous little viewfinder on the 240 does not appeal to me.

 

If worst comes to worst, I'll get Nikon mounts for my lenses.

 

Shame, really, because the R lenses give the M lenses a run for their money (and I say that as an owner of both).

[ph.]

Eh...  this is an old dream, time to time speculated in the Forum... but won't happen : too much dependancy on external providers which cannot guarantee you (so much for a small customer like Leica) a longstanding fit to your standards... it was the idea around the DMR module, a failure despite its excellent IQ. 

The mechanics and universal connectors could be independent of external manufacturers, the demosaicing could be tied to open source software and if sensors and their supporting circuitry can be bought in, deals with intermediaries would be less limiting. The M sensors seem to be made to order. Limitations would rather be that fabricators might not wish to sell their best products to a small customer.

 

p.

[asiafish]

For one thing, all tooling and production facilities  for the Leica R have long gone. They'd have to set up a new production line both in Portugal and Wetzlar, probably have to train new staff too.

All this without any prospect of projected sales that would cover R&D...

 

The R chapter is closed forever, I fear.

 

Having said that, a T with a built-in EVF of the quality of the Q one might well work.

The Visoflex for the T is not of the same quality as that of the Q, but it is fully competitive with the best anyone else has on offer.

 

i have the X113 and the same Visoflex and really find that combination to be a true DSLR and rangefinder replacement when I don't want to bother with the systems.

[asiafish]

A7 is the best R solution we are likely to see.

[wildlightphoto]

A7 is the best R solution we are likely to see.

 

Yesterday I ordered an a7II.

[dkCambridgeshire]

A7 is the best R solution we are likely to see.

 

 

But it's inevitable that Leica will market a non-rangefinder FF EVIL camera which would be far superior to anything in the A7 series. And other manufacturers e.g. Canon and Nikon will also have to 'keep up' and introduce their FF EVIL platforms … all of which are likely to 'whoop' Sony's offerings if they are to succeed in the crowded market place. 

 

Any Leica prosumer APS DSLR dinosaur would be greeted with contempt and ridicule by potential new Leica users. 

 

dunk

[almoore]

it's inevitable that Leica will market a non-rangefinder FF EVIL camera which would be far superior to anything in the A7 series

 

Have you used an A7?

 

They're remarkably capable cameras that are evolving at an astonishing rate. Leica, Canon or Nikon would be doing very well to equal Sony's offerings.

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[dkCambridgeshire]

Have you used an A7?

 

They're remarkably capable cameras that are evolving at an astonishing rate. Leica, Canon or Nikon would be doing very well to equal Sony's offerings.

 

I handled an A7 and contemplated buying but was put off by the negatives when used with Leica lenses as documented on this forum. Yes the A7 series is evolving but rival manufacturers are unlikely to introduce competitors which are not 'state of the art' and equal to or better than Sony's current offerings.  The A7 series is superb especially with its dedicated lenses but it's not necessarily the ideal or 'future best' M and R platform. 

 

dunk

[earleygallery]

But it's inevitable that Leica will market a non-rangefinder FF EVIL camera which would be far superior to anything in the A7 series.

 

How can you say that an imaginary camera will be far superior to anything else? As you can see so definately into the future, perhaps you can offer the forum some racing tips for today's meets?  

 

Do you think that the T is 'far superior' to anything Sony offer in mirrorless APS-C?