Jeffry Abt Posted June 23, 2015 Share #101 Posted June 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) ....wake-up time on the the (240) seems ok to me. I may be to easily pleased. Make it faster "wow!" (I am being sarcastic.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 23, 2015 Posted June 23, 2015 Hi Jeffry Abt, Take a look here M240 FW. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mjh Posted June 23, 2015 Share #102 Posted June 23, 2015 Vital piece of information! Does this mean there is no firmware fix for this, or can the firmware be written differently so that it doesn't have to scan the whole card to find an empty spot for the upcoming photo every time it wakes up from sleep? That a camera like the M has no internal flash memory (other than that used for storing the firmware) is far from unusual; some compact cameras have internal memory and also the T, but DSLRs, for example, usually don’t have internal flash memory either. The M has an internal buffer but that is volatile RAM – turn the camera off and its content is gone. When the camera is turned on it needs to scan the card to check what is on it – it could have changed in the interim. The camera doesn’t look for free blocks though; that is a much more low-level task. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 23, 2015 Share #103 Posted June 23, 2015 That a camera like the M has no internal flash memory (other than that used for storing the firmware) is far from unusual; some compact cameras have internal memory and also the T, but DSLRs, for example, usually don’t have internal flash memory either. The M has an internal buffer but that is volatile RAM – turn the camera off and its content is gone. When the camera is turned on it needs to scan the card to check what is on it – it could have changed in the interim. The camera doesn’t look for free blocks though; that is a much more low-level task. So may I infer 1: that for the M240 readiness, the SD card read time is more important than its write time and also the more files you have on a card the longer it takes the camera to be ready to shoot after wake up? 2: does 1 above have to do with the camera making sure that the "unique ID number" it is about ta assign has not already been used on the same card, given that the number is generated randomly and the same number does get used over but not on the same card before its either erased or formatted? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 23, 2015 Share #104 Posted June 23, 2015 Just for comparison, SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB 95MB/s write speed, card freshly formatted and inserted into M Edition 60 - start up time (measured just looking at my watch through the viewfinder) from turning the camera on and the framelines coming up in the viewfinder, less than a second. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 23, 2015 Share #105 Posted June 23, 2015 Just for comparison, SanDisk Extreme Pro 64GB 95MB/s write speed, card freshly formatted and inserted into M Edition 60 - start up time (measured just looking at my watch through the viewfinder) from turning the camera on and the framelines coming up in the viewfinder, less than a second. Thats all well and good but what is the actual time you need before you can take a picture in that same scenario? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted June 23, 2015 Share #106 Posted June 23, 2015 The fact that there simply is no internal flash memory for storing pictures. No card, no pictures. Sorry mjh, you are wrong. The camera can perfectly start shooting pictures immediately using the internal RAM buffer (1 GB on the base model, 2 GB on the MP). SD filesystem initialization can happen in background on a lower priority thread, and as soon as the SD is ready, the camera can flush the RAM buffer to flash. The real problem here is that the firmware is a joke. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrieleorlini Posted June 23, 2015 Share #107 Posted June 23, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) So may I infer 1: that for the M240 readiness, the SD card read time is more important than its write time and also the more files you have on a card the longer it takes the camera to be ready to shoot after wake up? 2: does 1 above have to do with the camera making sure that the "unique ID number" it is about ta assign has not already been used on the same card, given that the number is generated randomly and the same number does get used over but not on the same card before its either erased or formatted? 1: the time it takes the reading is based on the capacity and performance of the card, not in how many files are recorded. 2: why generated randomly? the name files are in progressive mode. Make a simple test: format SD, snaps some pictures, remove the SD and read it on your computer, changing the name of the last file with the one progressive number higher, insert the SD again, snaps a picture. Result: The last picture will be in progressive higher name. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted June 23, 2015 Share #108 Posted June 23, 2015 I just did exactly the same thing here in my hotel room here in sunny Glasgow... Exactly the same result... Less than a second. I never have very long start up times on my 240 M-P (nor do I have lock ups or 'freezing' either). I use the same SanDisk Extreme Pro 64Gb 95MB/s, always freshly formatted, often in SD Formatter on my MacBook Pro first and always in camera when I insert the card. I rarely have more than a sessions photographs on the card at any time, in six months the maximum is around 60 or so... and I always delete files on uploading. I will switch the camera on when photographing and leave it on while wandering around. More often than not I forget to switch it off, but it wakes up really quickly when I'm ready to take a shot or two... besides, my focussing always takes longer than the camera takes to wake up anyway... Battery life is excellent... I'm away for three days and didn't bother to bring my charger. I'm really struggling to understand why people have lookups and their camera takes a while to be ready... mine seems completely problem free and I don't do anything clever or worry about it at all... It just works... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 23, 2015 Share #109 Posted June 23, 2015 1: the time it takes the reading is based on the capacity and performance of the card, not in how many files are recorded. 2: why generated randomly? the name files are in progressive mode. Make a simple test: format SD, snaps some pictures, remove the SD and read it on your computer, changing the name of the last file with the one progressive number higher, insert the SD again, snaps a picture. Result: The last picture will be in progressive higher name. Not the file number, The M240 currently is unable to create a truly unique image identification number, which is why there is no method to absolutely determine the number of shots on an M240 series camera. Sometimes in Lightroom I get a preview of an image i shot a few months ago where the actual picture was made more recently. Thats because they are sharing the same Image ID although they have different file names Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrieleorlini Posted June 23, 2015 Share #110 Posted June 23, 2015 Not the file number, The M240 currently is unable to create a truly unique image identification number, which is why there is no method to absolutely determine the number of shots on an M240 series camera. Sometimes in Lightroom I get a preview of an image i shot a few months ago where the actual picture was made more recently. Thats because they are sharing the same Image ID although they have different file names ah ok Kwesi, the Image ID number.... sorry, I had misunderstood. So, it can happen what you say, but only in preview mode (Lr or other software) but the download will always be correct. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted June 23, 2015 Share #111 Posted June 23, 2015 ah ok Kwesi, the Image ID number.... sorry, I had misunderstood. So, it can happen what you say, but only in preview mode (Lr or other software) but the download will always be correct. I wonder is this is part of the problem. The camera must first examine each file so that it knows which Image id numbers have already been used. The more files , obviously the longer it takes to this. Just a guess on my part. If so then to fix the slow to shoot from wake up problem the new firmware must first fix the non-unique image id problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted June 23, 2015 Share #112 Posted June 23, 2015 Thats all well and good but what is the actual time you need before you can take a picture in that same scenario? The time it takes to focus. Much like Livingston, I typically download all the photos from a session in one go - at the end of the day, I download to my computer, clear the card, and put it back into my camera. I'm tempted to format it in SD Formatter in future. When taking pictures, I tend to leave my camera off. I turn it on as I bring the camera up. If I have forgotten to turn it on, the lack of framelines is an instant reminder. I set the aperture, check the shutter speed, focus, compose and take the shot. Startup time has never been an issue for me. Even if I were to hyper focus, set the aperture and turn the camera on and take the picture straight away, I doubt I would beat the camera - I turn the camera on as I lift it to my face ... but then, I don't have an LCD, live view or an EVF ... The reason I turn the camera off is nothing more than habit - I like to save battery power, the start up time is non-existent and for some irrational reason I don't like the idea of the sensor overheating (I know that isn't a problem as I don't have live view). Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted June 23, 2015 Share #113 Posted June 23, 2015 The camera does not scan the card looking for the next open space. Learn and remember that. So the capacity of the card is not proportionally related to start-up time, nor write time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Livingston Posted June 23, 2015 Share #114 Posted June 23, 2015 Seems we are pretty similar... I have an M-P but my LCD is off and I rarely use my EVF... I use classic metering always and only use the screen for access to the menu and checking focus or exposure from time to time if the lighting is difficult... normally if there is a wide dynamic range and I'm worried about blowing highlights... in which case it's an invaluable tool to keep exposure towards the left (not right!). I COULD get away with an M60 in actual photography given the way I use it, but the M-P gives me an easier time with menus and checking histograms (rarely) and I could use the EVF if I ever want to... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabrieleorlini Posted June 23, 2015 Share #115 Posted June 23, 2015 The camera does not scan the card looking for the next open space. Learn and remember that. So the capacity of the card is not proportionally related to start-up time, nor write time. I'm sorry but you're wrong Try with different SD capacity and performance and will see the difference Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 23, 2015 Share #116 Posted June 23, 2015 does 1 above have to do with the camera making sure that the "unique ID number" it is about ta assign has not already been used on the same card, given that the number is generated randomly and the same number does get used over but not on the same card before its either erased or formatted? The camera needs to know the highest image number used on the card which has nothing to do with the unique ID number – this is just about filenames. The camera maintains an internal counter and the next image number assigned depends on the internal counter or the highest number on the card, whichever is higher. Having said this, my experience (as those of many others) is that the startup time isn’t extraordinarily long really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Kilmister Posted June 23, 2015 Share #117 Posted June 23, 2015 is your camera set to never sleep? and if so how is your battery life? just curious. I have been afraid to leave my camera in a constant "on" state because of battery drain. Hi Kwesi, I was using irony. Please read my post again. (It was supposed to imply that I was a simple old man.) Imagine you were born and lived in Britain and you might understand the wit that was invented by the Greeks in the time of Homer. Sorry to sound patronising. We didn't invent irony but we use it a lot as a national trait. Joe Walsh who worked with the Eagles understood irony and used it in "Life's been good to me" with the line, "My Maserati does 185, I lost my licence, now I don't drive." All the best and no harm meant. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted June 23, 2015 Share #118 Posted June 23, 2015 That a camera like the M has no internal flash memory (other than that used for storing the firmware) is far from unusual; some compact cameras have internal memory and also the T, but DSLRs, for example, usually don’t have internal flash memory either. The M has an internal buffer but that is volatile RAM – turn the camera off and its content is gone. When the camera is turned on it needs to scan the card to check what is on it – it could have changed in the interim. The camera doesn’t look for free blocks though; that is a much more low-level task. I am sure you're right. But as a customer I ask: WHY is there no internal flash memory? With my M2 and M3 I didn't even have to switch my camera on to take a shot (nor did HCB). Why should I accept lesser performance simply because we are now in the digital age? I think we are in danger of accepting it simply because we've forgotten anything else. (My M240 is now at the better end of wake-up performance since I changed to a 64gb SanDisk card - about 1.5secs - still too slow). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted June 23, 2015 Share #119 Posted June 23, 2015 I am sure you're right. But as a customer I ask: WHY is there no internal flash memory? I’ve never missed it in any of my cameras. Actually I find it irritating if there are some pictures stored not on the card but in some internal memory, so to get at those pictures I either have to hunt for a USB cable or copy the contents of internal memory to a card. As I’ve said, having internal memory is quite unusual for system cameras. Some compact cameras have internal memory but it is generally so small as to be largely useless (a couple of megabytes). And even when there is internal memory, it is rarely faster than a card. Having internal memory doesn’t reduce start-up times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted June 23, 2015 Share #120 Posted June 23, 2015 I am sure you're right. But as a customer I ask: WHY is there no internal flash memory? Like I have explained in my previous post, the problem is not the lack of internal flash memory. As a matter of fact, internal vs external flash memory would not make any difference on a firmware standpoint. I for one do not want internal flash memory, as flash memory is prone to failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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