rodluvan Posted May 14, 2015 Share #1  Posted May 14, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hi,  it's difficult to find much detailed information about this lens (also called rigid type II). It seems to be the odd one out.  from what I've read it has a lens formula not shared with any other summicron, i.e. less elements to enhance contrast (while ultimate resolution is supposed to suffer some).  Now, I'm sure the optics is fine for my usage, but I want to know about the size.  Does anyone know how it (literally) measures up against the version 2 (rigid type I)? especially length. from the photos I've seen on the lens, it seems to share the physical design with the former v2.  Can anyone confirm?  Cheers,  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 14, 2015 Posted May 14, 2015 Hi rodluvan, Take a look here About Summicron 50mm, version 3. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
TomB_tx Posted May 14, 2015 Share #2  Posted May 14, 2015 The size of the v2 & v3 are quite similar: Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The lens heads both remove to attach to close focus mounts, although the construction is different so the v2 head won't fit the v3 body, etc. I've had my v3 since 1969, and it is excellent, even on the M9. The contrast is clearly higher than the v2, and this makes it appear to be sharper. If the actual resolution is less, it is very close. I also have the later Summicron (from 2012), and the v3 image is closer to it than to the v2. The v3 is a Mandler design, derived from the Summicron-R for the Leicaflex - I used a 1968 version on my SL and can't tell from the images whether it was taken with the R of M version.  Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The lens heads both remove to attach to close focus mounts, although the construction is different so the v2 head won't fit the v3 body, etc. I've had my v3 since 1969, and it is excellent, even on the M9. The contrast is clearly higher than the v2, and this makes it appear to be sharper. If the actual resolution is less, it is very close. I also have the later Summicron (from 2012), and the v3 image is closer to it than to the v2. The v3 is a Mandler design, derived from the Summicron-R for the Leicaflex - I used a 1968 version on my SL and can't tell from the images whether it was taken with the R of M version.  ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245018-about-summicron-50mm-version-3/?do=findComment&comment=2815946'>More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted May 14, 2015 Share #3 Â Posted May 14, 2015 My v3 above was from the 3rd production batch in 1968. It appears the first two batches of the 6-element optics may have used the focusing mount design of the v2 (rigid or DR). Perhaps they were testing reception of the new optics with the first runs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted May 14, 2015 Share #4  Posted May 14, 2015 I had those lenses also. Although the 11817 head does unscrew, I maybe wrong but AFAIK it was not meant to do so except for repair/adjustment, and it either won't fit or won't work properly with any other focusing mount.   As for performance, the 11817 gained contrast and center sharpness, but at the expense of a slight loss in resolution across the field. The 11817 is less flare-prone, and definitely has better coatings, which are the achilles heel of the earlier versions as they were quite soft and easily damaged.  Personally, having had all the Crons from collapsible on up to the latest, my favorite is the 11819, so-called "tabbed" version with the same optics as the current version. But there really isn't a bad Cron in the bunch. I still kept my collapsible, mainly because it's in screw mount for my LTM bodies, but it comports itself very well on my M240 also. And the build quality is amazing, especially compared to the recent collapsible 50 Elmar-M of which I had a few which eventually got loose and wobbly, my 60+ yr old Cron is as solid as the day it left the factory. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted May 14, 2015 Share #5  Posted May 14, 2015 the V3 and V4 do look similar.  Aluxy by unoh7, on Flickr  On the left there is a v4 "tabbed", which is my frontline daylight 50 on both m9 and A7.mod Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted May 14, 2015 Author Share #6  Posted May 14, 2015 The size of the v2 & v3 are quite similar [...]  very much appreciated. I struggled to find a comparative photo like you provided. great!  you also answer the question , why I can unscrew the lens head of my v2! I thought it was busted up good. I had no idea this was possible (adding a close focus mount and I have no idea how it is supposed to work).  again, thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted May 14, 2015 Share #7  Posted May 14, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) ...  Although the 11817 head does unscrew, I maybe wrong but AFAIK it was not meant to do so except for repair/adjustment, and it either won't fit or won't work properly with any other focusing mount.   Actually the lens head threads and seating are identical between the v2 & v3, and both can be used on the SOMKY-M close focus adapter by using the UOORF adapter. I've used both that way. The v3 head will even mount on the v2 focus mount, but not the reverse as the "skirt" on the aperture barrel is longer on the v2. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 14, 2015 Share #8  Posted May 14, 2015 I had those lenses also. Although the 11817 head does unscrew, I maybe wrong but AFAIK it was not meant to do so except for repair/adjustment, and it either won't fit or won't work properly with any other focusing mount.  The Summicron 50/2 # 11817 was my first Leica lens in the seventies. Its "head" is removable indeed and can be used with 16590 and 17672 adapters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted May 15, 2015 Share #9 Â Posted May 15, 2015 Mine has the same threads as my DR and Rigid. Â Â With the proper adapter, Â it is a fine enlarging lens for large prints. Â Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jml Posted May 16, 2015 Share #10  Posted May 16, 2015 Here a very interesting post about this  50 cron V3...but in French (technical and artistic approach) Anyway if you do not understand you will enjoy the pictures made with the various versions of the cron 50 http://www.summilux.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=58422 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share #11  Posted May 16, 2015 hi again,  found another summicron on the used market that has a focus tab, but the seller says it's a v3. is that possible? I think I've read somewhere that the latest batches came with a tab, but I can't seem to verify that information again.  here's the photo he provided  Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 16, 2015 Share #12 Â Posted May 16, 2015 It is a v4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share #13  Posted May 16, 2015 It is a v4. hm, yeah, that was what I suggested in the first email, but he replied v3. if he had no idea (for whatever reason) he should've just played along or told me he didn't know. there doesn't seem to be a good reason to say it's an older (worseish) version if it's not, does it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 16, 2015 Share #14 Â Posted May 16, 2015 I cannot say what this gentleman's reason was but what you posted above looks indeed like a v4. Do you recall the serial number of the lens? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 16, 2015 Share #15  Posted May 16, 2015 I have the 11817 made in 1968 or 69, and optically it is just fine. It appears that Leica thought it different enough to give it its own ID in the M9 lens menu. The rest of the non ASPH 50mm Summicrons are in one group.  My only complaint is strictly personal - it has no focus tab so it is difficult to handle, so SK Grimes company made one for me.  NOTE that there is a rare transitional version of black painted brass, no tab, and a scalloped focus ring like the earlier silver version. If you find one at the usual type 11817 price, go for it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share #16 Â Posted May 16, 2015 I cannot say what this gentleman's reason was but what you posted above looks indeed like a v4. Do you recall the serial number of the lens? I asked, but he simply replied "it's [version] 3" Â (he doen't seem to master the language (swedish) very well,from what I deduce from the ad). Â I'll ask again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted May 16, 2015 Share #17 Â Posted May 16, 2015 People do count the versions differently. Some consider the original "Rigid" as v1 lumped in with the earlier collapsible version, although all documents I find say the optical design is different (Erwin Puts traces a good history of them). Even the Leica Wiki with this site does that, calling the normal "V3" the V2 - so perhaps he read the Wiki! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodluvan Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share #18 Â Posted May 16, 2015 People do count the versions differently. Some consider the original "Rigid" as v1 lumped in with the earlier collapsible version, although all documents I find say the optical design is different (Erwin Puts traces a good history of them). Even the Leica Wiki with this site does that, calling the normal "V3" the V2 - so perhaps he read the Wiki! link? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomB_tx Posted May 16, 2015 Share #19 Â Posted May 16, 2015 link? http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/M_Lenses_x_Focal_Length Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 17, 2015 Share #20  Posted May 17, 2015 Even the Leica Wiki with this site does that, calling the normal "V3" the V2  Curious indeed as there have been four optical versions as far as Summicron 50/2 M lenses are concerned:  • V1 (11117, 11118) 1951-1957, 7 elements in 6 groups (collapsible and rigid - focus button): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  • V2 (11818, 11918) 1957-1968, 7 elements in 6 groups (rigid and dual range, focus button):  • V3 (11817) 1969-1979, 6 elements in 5 groups (rigid - no focus aid):  • V4 (11819, 11825, 11826, 11816) 1979-current, 6 elements in 4 groups (rigid, convex then concave focus tab, no focus aid and built-in hood since 1994): Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!  • V2 (11818, 11918) 1957-1968, 7 elements in 6 groups (rigid and dual range, focus button):  • V3 (11817) 1969-1979, 6 elements in 5 groups (rigid - no focus aid):  • V4 (11819, 11825, 11826, 11816) 1979-current, 6 elements in 4 groups (rigid, convex then concave focus tab, no focus aid and built-in hood since 1994): ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/245018-about-summicron-50mm-version-3/?do=findComment&comment=2817244'>More sharing options...
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