lct Posted May 11, 2015 Share #61 Posted May 11, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not all lenses have significant focus shift fortunately. With other ones, phase detection at real aperture will never be as accurate as a good rangefinder so it's not to morrow that optical RFs will disappear IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 11, 2015 Posted May 11, 2015 Hi lct, Take a look here New Leica M coming this year?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
IkarusJohn Posted May 15, 2015 Share #62 Posted May 15, 2015 Yes, "tabloid" style at its worst. A dreadful website. I was going to have a look, now I won't bother. One thing I'm confused about. Many here like the slim feel of the pre-digital M cameras. Certainly, the M-A feels like a jewel compared to the M60 (particularly with its case on). If the cameras got thicker because of the electronics, why would they get thinner from ditching the OVF? A camera of this sort is inevitable, but it isn't enough to lure me away from what I have. The next M camera will be guilding the lilly, and I really like my little T. I don't buy the zero sum arguments - it isn't selling to expectations/therefore it's a failure/prove its a success. It's selling. Maybe not as much as projected, maybe close, maybe more - who really knows. Leica won't be telling, regardless of what's claimed. The truth will be if they support the system, or dump it. The core to it all is the T mount. I'd be surprised if they drop that. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 15, 2015 Share #63 Posted May 15, 2015 I was going to quote Jaap above, but I'm on my iPad and it's just too painful. To say that a cheaper full frame, electronic M mount is entering a crowded and competitive market and the saying it would cost Leica M(240) sales makes no sense. The problem (and opportunity for Leica) is the success of the A7 cameras - the only full frame mirror less system camera that actually challenges the M camera. It's problem is that as a camera, it isn't actually as good as the M camera, and it doesn't play well with M lenses. It does have Ziess lenses,, but there aren't as many. I think an entry level, full frame M mount, without the OVF (taking advantage of cheaper electronics) would stop the bleed to Sony. The T camera shows that Leica can do this. Were I Leica, I would not be concerned if a potential M buyer bought such a camera, rather than an A7. Leica's strength - it's lenses. The fallibility of electronics in digital cameras makes the M camera secondary. Once a buyer has bought into the M lenses, they've bought into the system. The camera will be replaced, but not the lenses. Cheers John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 16, 2015 Share #64 Posted May 16, 2015 My opinion since the very beginning was that the T should have been FF, and should have had the evf incorporated. The T to my eyes turned out to be just another hasselblad lunar with a new fancy casing. If the rumor is true, it's just what should have been two years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 16, 2015 Share #65 Posted May 16, 2015 My opinion since the very beginning was that the T should have been FF, and should have had the evf incorporated. The T to my eyes turned out to be just another hasselblad lunar with a new fancy casing. If the rumor is true, it's just what should have been two years ago. Exactly which camera is the T an expensive repackaging of. I'll give yo a hint - the Lunar is a NEX-7 ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trule.de Posted May 16, 2015 Share #66 Posted May 16, 2015 The problem (and opportunity for Leica) is the success of the A7 cameras - the only full frame mirror less system camera that actually challenges the M camera. It's problem is that as a camera, it isn't actually as good as the M camera, and it doesn't play well with M lenses. It does have Ziess lenses,, but there aren't as many. I think an entry level, full frame M mount, without the OVF (taking advantage of cheaper electronics) would stop the bleed to Sony. The T camera shows that Leica can do this. Were I Leica, I would not be concerned if a potential M buyer bought such a camera, rather than an A7. Cheers John The A7 is great and while there are not many Zeiss lenses today, the problem for Leica is that Zeiss is producing new and interesting lenses for the Sony system ... Both manual and auto focus. The A7 is an alternative (not an equal) to the M240, and now Zeiss lenses are becoming an alternative to M Lenses. Leica will have increasing problems with this competition. I doubt Leica will do nothing but release another M camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted May 16, 2015 Share #67 Posted May 16, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) T lenses on a FF body which accepts M lenses .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 16, 2015 Share #68 Posted May 16, 2015 Exactly which camera is the T an expensive repackaging of. I'll give yo a hint - the Lunar is a NEX-7 ...Absolutely! the T is also very much a Nex-7 design wise with a all metal body and touch screen, but it's even missing an evf!!! i think Leica should compete with the a7 line, not the nex line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 16, 2015 Share #69 Posted May 16, 2015 The T system is APS-C rather than FF because with the T, Leica is targetting the larger APS-C market. Not to mention that Leica already has several products in the FF segment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 16, 2015 Share #70 Posted May 16, 2015 The T system is APS-C rather than FF because with the T, Leica is targetting the larger APS-C market. Not to mention that Leica already has several products in the FF segment. Well understood, but I think Leica should not target the aps-c market, but rather the FF one. It is more suitable to Leica's image. Leica has several FF products, true, but they are all RF, which is a stable but hardly expandable market. The success of the a7 has shown that people prefer FF. Leica desperatly needs an a7 eqivalent not a nex7. (and please don't make the evf an accessory, it should be incorporated in the body design). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanJW Posted May 16, 2015 Share #71 Posted May 16, 2015 Well understood, but I think Leica should not target the aps-c market, but rather the FF one. It is more suitable to Leica's image. Leica has several FF products, true, but they are all RF, which is a stable but hardly expandable market. The success of the a7 has shown that people prefer FF. Leica desperatly needs an a7 eqivalent not a nex7. (and please don't make the evf an accessory, it should be incorporated in the body design). I agree with this. Sony does a good job but I would far prefer that Leica give me something like the A7. It doesn't have to be a replacement for the M but a supplement, and an additional way to sell more Leica lenses. Especially if it had an M mount but also accepted a new line of AF lenses. Some people will always prefer the OVF and in fact I prefer it most of the time. Yet I would welcome a Leica M mount camera with an EVF and the possibility of AF. The T and other APS/C are neither here nor there. They are not small enough to be a real advantage over FF cameras that are getting smaller themselves (like A7). If you want to go small the way to go is MFT, and even those are not that much smaller than a M camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 16, 2015 Share #72 Posted May 16, 2015 The T system is APS-C rather than FF because with the T, Leica is targetting the larger APS-C market. Not to mention that Leica already has several products in the FF segment. To refer to Jaap's earlier post on competition, why try to compete in the larger APS-C segment when your point of difference is a beautiful body, cool interface and compatibility with full frame M lenses, yet using the same sensor as everyone else and charging considerably more for it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted May 16, 2015 Share #73 Posted May 16, 2015 why try to compete in the larger APS-C segment when your point of difference is a beautiful body, cool interface and compatibility with full frame M lenses, yet using the same sensor as everyone else and charging considerably more for it? With the T Leica is trying to reach a customer base they could never reach before. Creating a Leica version of the A7 to pick up detractors of the M system might not be worth the effort. If I were Leica I would lose no sleep over M photographers using their M lenses on an A7 (and how many are there anyway?) – as long as they are continuing to buy M lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted May 16, 2015 Share #74 Posted May 16, 2015 With the T Leica is trying to reach a customer base they could never reach before. Creating a Leica version of the A7 to pick up detractors of the M system might not be worth the effort. If I were Leica I would lose no sleep over M photographers using their M lenses on an A7 (and how many are there anyway?) – as long as they are continuing to buy M lenses. I understand that, Michael. The problem with this is trying to lure buyers in a crowded market sector with the same sensor as everyone else in an expensive package. How is this playing to Leica's strength, and why would anyone buy the Leica when the equivalent Sony costs so much less? Conversely, Leica has an excellent full frame sensor and the best full frame lenses. The only other camera in that sector is the A7, and as you say it doesn't play fair with Leica glass - no brainer, in my view. The gap in the market is not APS-C, it's full frame. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mornnb Posted May 17, 2015 Share #75 Posted May 17, 2015 My opinion since the very beginning was that the T should have been FF, and should have had the evf incorporated. The T to my eyes turned out to be just another hasselblad lunar with a new fancy casing. If the rumor is true, it's just what should have been two years ago. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, the T Mount is large enough to fit a full frame sensor and it looks to be designed with Full Frame in mind. However, full frame would double the price and Leica wanted a cheaper camera. They'll probably bring out a full frame version in time, just as how Sony has handled in the E Mount. I understand that, Michael. The problem with this is trying to lure buyers in a crowded market sector with the same sensor as everyone else in an expensive package. How is this playing to Leica's strength, and why would anyone buy the Leica when the equivalent Sony costs so much less? User experience and design. The Leica T is essentially the camera Apple would have made if they were in the business. Minimalist design and user interface, aluminium unibody shell. Leica is taking cues from Apple in electronics design, the companies have always had a similar philosophy of simplicity and perfectionism. This quote from Steve Jobs directly shows what Apple stands for, and I think it's also something Leica stands for: "When you first start off trying to solve a problem, the first solutions you come up with are very complex, and most people stop there. But if you keep going, and live with the problem and peel more layers of the onion off, you can often times arrive at some very elegant and simple solutions. Most people just don't put in the time or energy to get there. We believe that customers are smart, and want objects which are well thought through." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardkaraa Posted May 17, 2015 Share #76 Posted May 17, 2015 I don't know about others, but speaking for myself, if the T was FF I would have bought one without hesitation. But it isn't, and I didn't There are other things I don't like about the T like touchscreen and external evf, but the main issue is sensor size. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted May 17, 2015 Share #77 Posted May 17, 2015 I have nothing against APS cameras but even if i liked touchscreen and external evf, i would not pay $2.5K for a body and mandatory accessories which are not optimized for M lenses and don't do better than the faster and more Leica-like Fuji X-E2 that i got for much less. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
keenr Posted May 17, 2015 Share #78 Posted May 17, 2015 A Leica T-like form factor,FF with internal evf, and M lens. It would boost Leica M sales, while not deterring us RF purists, but rather enabling a presumably lower priced alternative/backup to the beloved M body. Kerry Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flintenschuetze Posted May 18, 2015 Share #79 Posted May 18, 2015 I don't know about others, but speaking for myself, if the T was FF I would have bought one without hesitation. But it isn't, and I didn't There are other things I don't like about the T like touchscreen and external evf, but the main issue is sensor size. So true - Leica should concentrate on FF. And instead of producing lesser gear Leica should produce a FF camera with a built in EVF which can handle all M Lenses at their optimum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted May 18, 2015 Share #80 Posted May 18, 2015 I think the current lineup with T and M is perfect, they just need continued improvement. For image quality they could be like the M8 to the M9. The T sensor is a good size for AF lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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