How do you like your summicron 75mm?

[adan]

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Since I posted about 75 Summicron problems earlier in this thread, I have to report I've now found a functional copy, and will not ever sell this one.

 

The close-up framing and resolution are bl**dy marvelous (as I already knew).

 

M9 in the studio, 0.7 meters.

 

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[Paulus]

May i ask if you've used the 3 faulty copies in LV/EVF mode?

yes I did,I copared the viewfinder with the Liveview. In all situations, the close focus was good, till about 20-40meters, but it could not turn to infinity. Just before it reached infinity, thus producing a sharp image, it stopped because one could not turn the ring any further.

 

When Leica could give the ring some more slack, it would be fine probably, but some say that this effects the close focus ability of the lens. Further more. getting a sharp image just before infinity, say 50 -100 meters was a real ordeal. I could only produce a really sharp photo every 10th attept.

 

You could say: "hey maybe, you are not good in focussing with a viewfinder camera." , but I know that is rubbish. In all these years I never had problems with this. Nor did I have had problems with the other lenses: 1,4/50 asph or 90mm asph 135mm Elmar 2,8 90mm Elmarit, 1,0 Noctilux.

[pgk]

To sum up, these two will be chalk and cheese......

 

To add to my original post (#2). Having compared both the Summicron and Summilux in terms of focus accuracy I can say that the two I have are absolutely spot on and work exactly as expected. The Summilux was way out when bought, but the deal included a trip to Leica and it is now as precise as I could want. They are quite different in character with the Summicron obviously a more recent and extraordinarily good design, but as I said before quite unforgiving. The Summilux is softer at wide apertures and has a smoothness of micro-contrast which delivers detailed images lacking the severity of 'bite' of the Summicron when used in appropriate conditions stopped down. This may be down to just a merest hint of residual spherical aberration? Both are lenses I will keep.

[DezFoto]

I like mine, but don't love it. Mine (like many others) was bought new but was not correctly calibrated from the factory, so focussing was very hit and miss (mostly miss). It's since been adjusted and, although better, is still not perfect. It's a very sharp lens, even wide open and a decent focal length for looser portraits. I use it mostly at f/4 and smaller, which means points of light in your background get kind of stop sign-isn, though the rest of the bokeh remains pretty smooth. Colors are nice and consistent with my 50 'Lux. It's bit on the bigger and heavier side, for a rangefinder lens and does flare easily. 

 

I've been thinking lately that I should just sell/trade it for the new 75 Summarit ASPH, since I rarely use the Cron at f/2 and the Summarit is a considerably smaller lens, but still very, very good. 

[MarkP]

Since I posted about 75 Summicron problems earlier in this thread, I have to report I've now found a functional copy, and will not ever sell this one.

 

The close-up framing and resolution are bl**dy marvelous (as I already knew).

 

M9 in the studio, 0.7 meters.

 

new75.jpg

 

 

Congratulations are in order then!

 

Nice photo of your old addiator. I have a Castell addiator with slide rule on the back. Fascinating devices.

[Paulus]

I like mine, but don't love it. Mine (like many others) was bought new but was not correctly calibrated from the factory, so focussing was very hit and miss (mostly miss). It's since been adjusted and, although better, is still not perfect. It's a very sharp lens, even wide open and a decent focal length for looser portraits. I use it mostly at f/4 and smaller, which means points of light in your background get kind of stop sign-isn, though the rest of the bokeh remains pretty smooth. Colors are nice and consistent with my 50 'Lux. It's bit on the bigger and heavier side, for a rangefinder lens and does flare easily. 

 

I've been thinking lately that I should just sell/trade it for the new 75 Summarit ASPH, since I rarely use the Cron at f/2 and the Summarit is a considerably smaller lens, but still very, very good. 

I was thinking, the three 75crons I was testing were used ones. Maybe that was the reason they were sold or traded at the shop in the first place. Still: Three in a row is a bit of a embarrasment I think. I will try two others next week, also occasions in the shop. A few years ago I also tried a new one in a shop, but it was on my MP. When I develloped the t-max films, they were not sharp as well. In that time I thought it was my mistake. reading the above makes me think a little different.

 

Can I conclude rightly, that there are 3 sorts of apo 75mm lenses out of factory that are:

 

1.very sharp ( normal )

2.not sharp at infinity

3.hit and mis sharp.

 

So are there serialnumers of the right ones? Maybe it's a batch problem? Forgot to write down my numbers, but all lenses were quite new beginning with a   4xxxxxx

[lct]

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The Summicron 75/2 was a film lens at its launch in May 2005 so i would check that your copy was 6-bit coded from scratch or has been calibrated for digital. 

[Paulus]

The Summicron 75/2 was a film lens at its launch in May 2005 so i would check that your copy was 6-bit coded from scratch or has been calibrated for digital. 

I only have tried the 6-bit copies. Shurely would I engage a copy without a 6-bit, but what are you saying? Are the old better than the new, or is it all a matter of calibration?

 

I had a similar problem long ago with a M8 and a 90mm Elmarit-M . A lot of backfocus and not sharp at infinity on the M8. I have sent all my lenses to Solms then and they 6-bittet them all and calibrated them om my M8. Since then, I did not have a problem. The summiluxasph 50 and the Elmarit_M are the only ones I still have from this inventory, but they don't give any problem today. A new bought 90 asph did not give any problems.

[Paulus]

The Summicron 75/2 was a film lens at its launch in May 2005 so i would check that your copy was 6-bit coded from scratch or has been calibrated for digital. 

These lenses were all at 70mm distance sharp so it cannot be the first batch from 2004. Also I believe that the non 6-bit coded lenses still had white boxes. The current ones have the " metal + black boxes. All the lenses were " in the box ". So maybe it's fair to assume, that these were recent ones? I do not have any copie of the lenses at home. I sent them back to the shop or let them at their owners.

[pgk]

Can I conclude rightly, that there are 3 sorts of apo 75mm lenses out of factory that are:

 

1.very sharp ( normal )

2.not sharp at infinity

3.hit and mis sharp.

 

 

 If you look at Leica's pdf on the 75mm Summicron, this is what it says:

 

To maintain the outstanding imaging performance even at the minimum range of 0.7m - the Summilux-M 75mm only achieves 1m - as on the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH., a so-called floating element is used. This final lens element (no. 6/7) changes its position relative to the rest of the optical system during focusing. While the fundamental technology is common in SLR lenses, to achieve this in a compact M lens with its very limited space, the Leica designers had to develop a brand new, extremely precise adjusting mechanism. Its use allows the benefits of this design to be utilized to the full, while at the same time guaranteeing the familiar silky smooth and absolutely accurate focusing of the M lenses. 

 

So as I see it the possible scenarios are:

1. Everything correctly adjusted - fabulously sharp at infinity and close focus

2. Whole lens assembly out of adjustment in terms of infinity focus, but Floating Element correctly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - not sharp at infinity but sharp close up

3. Lens correctly adjusted for infinity focus but Floating Element incorrectly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - probably not terribly sharp anywhere

4. Whole lens assembly out of adjustment in terms of infinity focus and Floating Element incorrectly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - probably pretty poor performance

 

And depending on the degree of maladjustment the lens might vary form fabulous to poor and every shade in between. Because of its greater focal length I would guess that the 75mm is even less tolerant of incorrect adjustment than the 50mm.

 

Its worth persevering because when its correctly adjusted it is a stunningly good lens.

[Paulus]

 If you look at Leica's pdf on the 75mm Summicron, this is what it says:

 

To maintain the outstanding imaging performance even at the minimum range of 0.7m - the Summilux-M 75mm only achieves 1m - as on the Summilux-M 50mm ASPH., a so-called floating element is used. This final lens element (no. 6/7) changes its position relative to the rest of the optical system during focusing. While the fundamental technology is common in SLR lenses, to achieve this in a compact M lens with its very limited space, the Leica designers had to develop a brand new, extremely precise adjusting mechanism. Its use allows the benefits of this design to be utilized to the full, while at the same time guaranteeing the familiar silky smooth and absolutely accurate focusing of the M lenses. 

 

So as I see it the possible scenarios are:

1. Everything correctly adjusted - fabulously sharp at infinity and close focus

2. Whole lens assembly out of adjustment in terms of infinity focus, but Floating Element correctly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - not sharp at infinity but sharp close up

3. Lens correctly adjusted for infinity focus but Floating Element incorrectly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - probably not terribly sharp anywhere

4. Whole lens assembly out of adjustment in terms of infinity focus and Floating Element incorrectly adjusted relative to other lens/optical assembly - probably pretty poor performance

 

And depending on the degree of maladjustment the lens might vary form fabulous to poor and every shade in between. Because of its greater focal length I would guess that the 75mm is even less tolerant of incorrect adjustment than the 50mm.

 

Its worth persevering because when its correctly adjusted it is a stunningly good lens.

Thank you Paul,

 

I noticed with my 1,4 -  50 asph, its brother, that it can get out of tune also a bit. Recently I sent mine to Will van Manen to adjust it. The tiny problems it showed were gone after the CLA and tuning. Serving me greatly for 11 years at a stretch, I was wondering if the 75mm gets " out of tune " easily or if the problems arise from the start of buying the lens.

 

In other ways. Is a "bad" 75mm mendable or will it always stay a sort of issue? I don't know if it's possible to adjust the floating element and other "things" in such a way. I interviewed a 75mm buyer from an Amsterdam shop, asking him why he had sold his 75mm still under warrenty. His answer was, that the shop shipped it to Leica, but after returning, the issue started again. He traded in store for a new 75 lens, but with this one it appeared also, so he sold this one, leaving the new owner with a " bad " lens. I'm not talking about the ethics here, maybe he just thought he could not focus, that it was his fault, but still. Maybe the lens should have gone back to the factory. I think it's not a good sign if to many 75mm stay "outside" and ruin a perfect lens reputation.   

[pgk]

In other ways. Is a "bad" 75mm mendable or will it always stay a sort of issue? I don't know if it's possible to adjust the floating element and other "things" in such a way.

 

My suspicion is that as this lens was originally designed and built in film days, slight maladjustment was probably not very noticeable on film, but it is now with digital. I am sure that this lens can be correctly and accurately adjusted but it may require a trip to the factory to do this. Once it has been adjusted a lens should not go out of adjustment for a long time, although regular servicing of such a complex mechanical design is probably required every so often.

 

FWIW my Summilux wouldn't actually focus correctly at all before its trip to the factory (as in everything was out of focus). It is absolutely spot on now and whilst not as complex as the Summicron mechanically, it requires absolute precision when adjusting to be accurate at f/1.4, which it now is. I have found Leica to be very, very good when adjusting lenses, but that is not to say that they do not make mistakes like everyone else. The Summicron is a superb lens when correctly adjusted - it really is worth the effort of getting Leica to sort it out properly.

[Paulus]

My suspicion is that as this lens was originally designed and built in film days, slight maladjustment was probably not very noticeable on film, but it is now with digital. I am sure that this lens can be correctly and accurately adjusted but it may require a trip to the factory to do this. Once it has been adjusted a lens should not go out of adjustment for a long time, although regular servicing of such a complex mechanical design is probably required every so often.

 

FWIW my Summilux wouldn't actually focus correctly at all before its trip to the factory (as in everything was out of focus). It is absolutely spot on now and whilst not as complex as the Summicron mechanically, it requires absolute precision when adjusting to be accurate at f/1.4, which it now is. I have found Leica to be very, very good when adjusting lenses, but that is not to say that they do not make mistakes like everyone else. The Summicron is a superb lens when correctly adjusted - it really is worth the effort of getting Leica to sort it out properly.

Fair enough, but this is nice, when you buy a lens under warrenty:

 

The costs of mending such a lens could be quite high. My 90mm asph was adjusted and cleaned and 6-bit by Leica about three years ago. It's a 389x.xxx so 15 years old now. It costed me € 475,- It was worth every penny today, but still. Adding this amount a used lens, one has to buy it relatively cheap.

I think it's a buyers marktet today, but tell this to the shopkeepers who don't want to sell the things under their price.

 

Also, you have to buy a lens which is already " bad" when you buy it. I don't know if such a thing falls under the warrenty of the shop if you complain about its sharpness after buying. Who is responsable for the " used lens " warranty: Not Leica but the shopkeeper. It could ruin a long lasting relationship if you want to do this. More easier, what the last shop did was: " If you are not pleased with the lens, you can give it back and we pay ou back the amount." still one doesn't have a lens.

 

And still you are not certain, although the repairs have a wonderful reputation and warranty, the lens would be as great as possible. Could Leica say: " this particular specimen, we made it as good as it gets, but it will not get better. " They have no controll over a lens as soon as it leaves the factory and that's understandable if they are not liable for such an item in every possible way.

 

 

My conclusion the risk stays at the buyer's or buy a new one at the risk of the above...

[pgk]

Fair enough, but this is nice, when you buy a lens under warrenty:

 

I think it's a buyers marktet today, but tell this to the shopkeepers who don't want to sell the things under their price.

 

My conclusion the risk stays at the buyer's or buy a new one at the risk of the above...

 

When I bought my Summilux it was with the dealer's agreement that the lens would be serviced and adjusted.

 

Any reputable dealer will offer a guarantee which will include adjustment if the lens fails to perform as it should. So only buy from a reputable dealer if you are worried.

[lct]

[...] My conclusion the risk stays at the buyer's or buy a new one at the risk of the above...

Mine is: [a] do not buy that kind of lens w/o handling it in person (same for the 50/1.4 asph BTW); bring an EVF in the shop; [c] check sharpness at 10x focus magnification. Been there .

[Paulus]

Mine is: [a] do not buy that kind of lens w/o handling it in person (same for the 50/1.4 asph BTW); bring an EVF in the shop; [c] check sharpness at 10x focus magnification. Been there .

The nice thing is, that the M240 makes the assesment of a lens so much easier than with the M9 or before. One of the great advantages of the M-( P)240 /246. I never buy a lens without it anymore.

[DezFoto]

Can I conclude rightly, that there are 3 sorts of apo 75mm lenses out of factory that are:

 

1.very sharp ( normal )

2.not sharp at infinity

3.hit and mis sharp.

 

So are there serialnumers of the right ones? Maybe it's a batch problem? Forgot to write down my numbers, but all lenses were quite new beginning with a   4xxxxxx

 

I think there were a number of quality control problems that manifested at Leica's old factory, due to them not being able to manufacture and calibrate enough lenses to meet demand, especially after the M9 was released. So I think a lot of lenses went out the factory doors poorly calibrated because it is a time consuming process. I've even run into lenses at the Leica Store LA that were not correctly calibrated.

 

To compound things (like someone else mentioned above) I think the FLE lenses like the 75 Cron, 50 Lux and 35 Lux are more susceptible to falling out of calibration due to bumps or large temperature changes. 

 

For what it's worth, I did write a review of the lens on my site at: http://www.digipixelpop.com/?p=902

[Paulus]

I think there were a number of quality control problems that manifested at Leica's old factory, due to them not being able to manufacture and calibrate enough lenses to meet demand, especially after the M9 was released.

Thank you for sharing your article!

About your thinking of quality control. Is it just thinking, deducing from experiences in the shop,  or are there facts, talking to employees at the Leica factory, investigating reporters etc. Why would such a thing still manifest itself in lenses which came recently outof the factory?

[DezFoto]

Thank you for sharing your article!

About your thinking of quality control. Is it just thinking, deducing from experiences in the shop,  or are there facts, talking to employees at the Leica factory, investigating reporters etc. Why would such a thing still manifest itself in lenses which came recently outof the factory?

 

I'm not aware of many people complaining of quality control on lenses that were purchased in 2015, though my assumption would be that there are still a large number of unsold lenses in the supply chain that would be from the old factory, so I'm sure there's still some poorly calibrated lenses.  

My assumptions about quality control are based mostly on people complaining on forums (I know, not that reliable), people I know personally who have had issues, and my own experiences. I have had very little luck with getting brand new lenses that are correctly calibrated, including a purchase last year of a brand new 50mm Summarit-M f/2.5, which back-focussed straight out of the box. Even the 50mm APO had quality control issues when first released. 

All that being said, there was a large spike in complains, plus lenses and cameras being sent NJ for adjustment during the years that Leica was struggling to meet demand for the M9 and new lenses, which is the excuse they gave me when it took 3 months to get my M8 adjusted and the sensor repaired in 2011. Even in 2014 it took them 6 months to repair and calibrate my 50mm Summilux ASPH. 

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[Paulus]

I'm not aware of many people complaining of quality control on lenses that were purchased in 2015, though my assumption would be that there are still a large number of unsold lenses in the supply chain that would be from the old factory, so I'm sure there's still some poorly calibrated lenses.  

My assumptions about quality control are based mostly on people complaining on forums (I know, not that reliable), people I know personally who have had issues, and my own experiences. I have had very little luck with getting brand new lenses that are correctly calibrated, including a purchase last year of a brand new 50mm Summarit-M f/2.5, which back-focussed straight out of the box. Even the 50mm APO had quality control issues when first released. 

All that being said, there was a large spike in complains, plus lenses and cameras being sent NJ for adjustment during the years that Leica was struggling to meet demand for the M9 and new lenses, which is the excuse they gave me when it took 3 months to get my M8 adjusted and the sensor repaired in 2011. Even in 2014 it took them 6 months to repair and calibrate my 50mm Summilux ASPH. 

I understand your arguments. Still Leica never said to me, that lenses were badly calibrated from factory due to struggling to meet the demands on building them or M9's . Leica has longer waiting list, but shorter or less quality controls? That had to swallow. 

It's difficult to rely on the forum, to analise these things. I think I'm right if only the people complain about their lenses and cameras when there is something faulty.

 

In my Leica owner years things went wrong, but not because of to much demand. In the time the M6 cameras were at their end cycle , my one new camera went wrong also, but two other new ones did not. The demand in that time was verly low, so that could not be the problem. Problems occur, probably with every brand, murphys law and so. Still the thing is:

 

Listening to people who are sitting closer to the Leica fire, know of this "problem" with the apo 75. The thing is, it's not exepted enough as a problem, maybe, because there are other lenses that have more priority, like the 2,0/35 asph lens just re-issued.

 

It would to me, not come as a surprise, if the apo 75 comes  as a re-issue in the nearby futere. Say in a year or three.