Summicron 75mm versus CV 75mm-Sean Reid's new review

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Fred Picker taught me the zone system way back when

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[sean_reid]

Fred Picker taught me the zone system way back when

 

Fred's Zone VI was based in Newfane and Brattleboro, Vermont which is close to where I live. Back when I was shooting large format, I used to own all kinds of Zone VI gear. I know a lot of people learned a lot from Fred and I imagine he was a good teacher.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Sean is he still around, I knew he did live up there and i go back to like 77 or 78 with him when I went to the School of Visual Arts in NY

[wparsonsgisnet]

Fred's Zone VI was based in Newfane and Brattleboro, Vermont which is close to where I live. Back when I was shooting large format, I used to own all kinds of Zone VI gear. I know a lot of people learned a lot from Fred and I imagine he was a good teacher...

 

I, too, own a lot of Zone VI gear. The best stuff there was for photog's. Sort of like ReidReviews: photog stuff designed and built by a photog. One of the most valuable items I got from Z-VI was the monthly newsletter. The hints and explanations made my photography better and easier.

 

Great losses in life: Scott Fraser, Coffee Connection, Zone VI.

 

Sort of back on track: my son (the current user of my long-idle M6) got that camera and the DR lens. He visited recently and got custody of the 90 'cron, but he also used the 75 'lux and he's still whining about it.

 

Between a 50 and a 75, portraits are well-covered. As it happens, I use all the lenses from 24 thru 75 for portraiture. This is possible in part because of all the detail in the file, that allows me to crop freely.

 

I like to look over the camera when shooting. As a result, I use a wider lens than otherwise, so I don't have to worry about capturing what I want somewhere in the image. This particular trick allows me to relate to the subject(s) better.

 

The images of both 75's in your article, Sean, are amazing. What a terrific resource your reviews are. I'm getting ready to make still another purchase as a result.

 

Many thanks. Put(s) that in your pipe and smoke it.

[sean_reid]

Sean is he still around, I knew he did live up there and i go back to like 77 or 78 with him when I went to the School of Visual Arts in NY

 

Hi Guy,

 

No, I'm sorry but Fred died in 2002 from kidney problems.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[sean_reid]

I, too, own a lot of Zone VI gear. The best stuff there was for photog's. Sort of like ReidReviews: photog stuff designed and built by a photog. One of the most valuable items I got from Z-VI was the monthly newsletter. The hints and explanations made my photography better and easier.

 

Great losses in life: Scott Fraser, Coffee Connection, Zone VI.

 

Sort of back on track: my son (the current user of my long-idle M6) got that camera and the DR lens. He visited recently and got custody of the 90 'cron, but he also used the 75 'lux and he's still whining about it.

 

Between a 50 and a 75, portraits are well-covered. As it happens, I use all the lenses from 24 thru 75 for portraiture. This is possible in part because of all the detail in the file, that allows me to crop freely.

 

I like to look over the camera when shooting. As a result, I use a wider lens than otherwise, so I don't have to worry about capturing what I want somewhere in the image. This particular trick allows me to relate to the subject(s) better.

 

The images of both 75's in your article, Sean, are amazing. What a terrific resource your reviews are. I'm getting ready to make still another purchase as a result.

 

Many thanks. Put(s) that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

Thanks Bill. Zone VI stuff was, indeed, designed by photographers for photographers. Maybe that will end up being one legacy of the "Windham County, Vermont" photo businesses. Vermonters do tend to be pragmatic and Fred became a Vermonter even though he wasn't born here <G>.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

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Hi Guy,

 

No, I'm sorry but Fred died in 2002 from kidney problems.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Sorry to hear that, Great loss to the Photo world.

[wparsonsgisnet]

Sean, it's nice when you guys can say good things about a foreigner.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Funny you should mention Ansel Adams. I was writing about his book "The Negative". For those who may not know them, the three-book series Adams did on technique in photography remains, in my mind, some of the best writing on technical matters I've ever read. They are called "The Camera", "The Negative" and "The Print". The underlying concepts are valuable for digital photographers as well as film photographers.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

I have battered copies of "The Negative" and "The Print" still*, and I still try to think in Zone terms about the range of light intensities present in a scene, BUT dialing up the ISO in the digital world is not the same as developing +1 or +2. Adams could expose for the shadows and develop to place the highlights where they expressed what he wanted. If a scene had things actually in Zone III and Zone V that he wanted to render as Zone II and Zone VII, under exposure and over development would do it. But in digital if we dial up the highlights two stops the shadows come along with them, and it takes post processing to put them back where they belong. Or if we dial up the ISO to bring up shadow detail, the highlights can blow their excess electrons out to the overflow drain, and be unrecoverable.

 

So a different set of "previsualizations" are needed today.

 

scott

 

* sitting right next to a whole bunch of old Kodak data books, and David Vestal's "The craft of photography."

[carstenw]

Scott, you need to use the right tool. I am most familiar with Lightroom, so I will describe this. The overall exposure moves all the values up and down. You do this only to set the crudest setting. You then use the Recover slider to move only the highlights. In your scenario, you would simply pull up the highlights a bit, or increase the Contrast. And so on.

 

Other available controls are Brightness, which superficially does the same as Exposure, but it anchors the end points. Similarly, Saturation moves everything and Vibrance anchors the end points. Fill Light adds light to the shadows (or subtracts it). Black raises the level at which the shade is rendered as pure black. There is also a curve tool to play with if you have unusual needs.Here are two before and after shots.

 

Lightzone is meant to be a haven for zone system refugees. I would like to spend more time with it, experimenting, but find myself still playing with Lightroom (which isn't perfect, but a lot of fun).

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[xjr]

There is Leica.....and there are the rest. No reviews, no stories, no comparisons ,no nothing and no comment.......................

[carstenw]

There is Leica.....and there are the rest. No reviews, no stories, no comparisons ,no nothing and no comment.......................

 

Huh?

[scott kirkpatrick]

Carsten,

 

Good examples. I didn't mean that the kind of control that Adams exerted was impossible today, only that we do things at different steps in the process. Having absorbed the Zone system and the characteristics of film before coming to digital, I find I get confused sometimes. Plus Adams and LF photographers of that style produced negatives that were just as beautiful as their prints.

 

scott

 

edit: Another fascinating difference is that in digital we can choose after the shot is taken whether to develop it in color or black and white. My impression is that very different tone curves work best in the two forms. B&W needs more contrast to separate the mid tones clearly, while color contrast accomplishes that quite subtly. Photographers who shoot for B&W seem to have different lens preferences as a result. Notice in your second example you have three kinds of foliage in the color shot, but I only see two kinds in black and white.

[carstenw]

Yes, I also dipped my toes into the zone system some time ago, and loved the control it gave over my results. I never did have my own darkroom though, so half the system was missing for me.

 

Digitally, I think that the average results are so much better than film, but I do sometimes wonder about the very cutting edge, if film isn't still capable of more subtle results, and finer prints, especially in B&W. I plan on setting aside some quality time with various raw developers at some point this summer, to see what the very best is I can come up with, with a digital workflow.

[wlaidlaw]

Yes, I also dipped my toes into the zone system some time ago, and loved the control it gave over my results. I never did have my own darkroom though, so half the system was missing for me.

 

Digitally, I think that the average results are so much better than film, but I do sometimes wonder about the very cutting edge, if film isn't still capable of more subtle results, and finer prints, especially in B&W. I plan on setting aside some quality time with various raw developers at some point this summer, to see what the very best is I can come up with, with a digital workflow.

 

Carsten,

 

Perhaps you could do a "Sean" for us on the various RAW developers and post it on your website. I have to say that the ease of batch processing on C1LE takes some beating, although I like the fine control you have on Lightzone, particularly for black and white. Of course on C1, Edmund and Jamie have made life easy for the lazier amongst us, like me, with their excellent profiles.

 

Wilson

[wparsonsgisnet]

... Of course on C1, Edmund and Jamie have made life easy for the lazier amongst us, like me, with their excellent profiles...Wilson

 

I prefer to think of my use of others' profiles as discerning. Economists have a term for this situation: competitive advantage.

[gwelland]

Lightzone is meant to be a haven for zone system refugees. I would like to spend more time with it, experimenting, but find myself still playing with Lightroom (which isn't perfect, but a lot of fun).

 

It most certainly is! I find that I use my raw converters to set basic white balance, exposure/black & brightness but then drop into LightZone for all of my tonal work. The ease with which both global and local adjustments can be made make Lightroom/CS3 and to certain degree CaptureNX seem crude and a slog by comparison. It just seems so much more intuitive for tonal work.

 

I still find myself using a repertoire of tools in post production as no single one yet addresses all of the quality/ease of use issues. It's still a case of using the best features from a number of tools for me.

 

As regards the Leica/CV 75 rendering - if you're going to be doing much post production work then it's far easier to add contrast (to the CV) than it is to reduce it from a 'cron image. That said, I find that I need very little post production work with my M8/summicron files anyway.

[carstenw]

Wilson, I am far from an expert in processing, but I could post some more detailed impressions once I get a chance to play with the programs.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Man do I have a headache. Hell the 75 lux kicks all there butts. ROTFLMAO

 

Just could not resist

[Guest guy_mancuso]

Seriuosly do not count out a 20 year old lens design . Look at the Zeiss 21mm for Contax SLR's built back in the day and not a lens around in that class comes close but a leica 19mm. Some of the best lenses in the world were made back than, yes the new designs are awesome with ASPH glass and all that but honestly don't just write off a old design.