Bill Livingston Posted March 11, 2015 Share #81 Posted March 11, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) This forum is getting increasingly bizarre... I have worked in the electronics industry all my life, in recording studios, at a premier hifi company and now in distribution. Products fail from time to time, even the very best of them. That is a given. What matters is what that percentage failure is and what is done about it... if it is a very insignificant failure rate then it isn't worth worrying too much about it. Its cheaper overall to repair the odd fault than it is to eradicate them permanently... if indeed it is even possible. Software issues are often easy enough to fix, but not always, component failure tends to be more often than not, poor design in the first instance or poor selection of supplier The facts are unknown to us as we do not have access to the total number of cameras sold and their percentage failure rate. The only thing we do know is that customers who have faults complain or have them serviced, those that don't simply carry on using them and don't report anything. From what I read on here, the 240 appears to suffer far less faults than most other M series cameras and certainly, so far, doesn't suffer from the issues the M8 and M9 have during their product lifespan. And before anyone then starts talking about earlier film M series cameras, they seemed to suffer from faults too, all along their history. Rangefinder issues, detached prisms... all sorts of things... and very often a fault may not even be know to the owner... shutter speed issues, focusing issues... who knows what. What matters is how reliable the cameras actually are and how they compare to their competition... I have had a faulty Nikon FM and an Olympus OM-1 that had mirror issues... (it used to get stuck) Not had a problem with a Leica. I didn't worry about my FM and I didn't worry about my OM-1. These things happen. For some reason, Leica cameras cannot be seen to be mere 'mortals' and people expect perfection. You can't get 'perfection'... and for a basically hand made camera, built with the materials it is built with, made to that level of precision, it actually isn't that expensive. I can point to hifi products that cost FAR more, are far less well built and are far less reliable than any Leica camera you care to mention... My Leica 240? Never had a moments issue with it and it's by far the most complete camera I have ever owned. I think a little perspective here wouldn't go amiss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 11, 2015 Posted March 11, 2015 Hi Bill Livingston, Take a look here Are There Trouble Free M(240)s?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted March 11, 2015 Share #82 Posted March 11, 2015 There is an essential difference between a hand-built camera and a robot-built one. A robot can go wrong, but if one pulls samples off the assembly line and tests them to destruction, any fault found will apply to the others of the run, making correction and quality control consistent and close to 100% A camera built by human beings will be subject to random faults. That means each and every camera must be checked, and can only be checked without taking it apart. That means quality control in a hand-built situation can never be as good as in an automated production process, no matter how hard you try. This does not excuse, of course, weird lapses like upside down rings, cameras fully out of adjustment, etc. That aspect certainly needs tightening up. Otoh, anybody who has a business can recall instances when a process had numerous check points and and each and every one of them failed... Getting back to the M240, I find it hard to understand why all M240s do not work perfectly like the Japanese cameras that I have ever owned. Presumably each one is made out of the same sourced components and assembled in the same way with the same testing procedures or is quality control questionable? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted March 11, 2015 Share #83 Posted March 11, 2015 My M240 worked well for the past 24 mths. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgb Posted March 14, 2015 Share #84 Posted March 14, 2015 Further to my post (07/03) re dust on the sensor of a month old M, the dealers in Dublin tried 3 times cleaning it but today we decided to return the camera to Leica to see what they have to say about it. The technician in the shop suggested that 'the sensor appears to have built up a static charge as it cannot be cleaned successfully'. It will be interesting to hear what those in Leica say. Thanks for the advice, J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted March 14, 2015 Share #85 Posted March 14, 2015 People seem to ignore that different users have different usage patterns. This explains why some users have tried several cameras and never experienced the lockup issue, and other users tried several cameras and always had the lockup issue. No issues doesn't mean bug-free software and hardware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carduelis Posted March 14, 2015 Share #86 Posted March 14, 2015 I actually think that the faults associated with the M240 are quite complex and do not necessarily appear systematic. I conclude this because I have sessions when the camera works absolutely perfectly and sessions where lockups occur quite frequently and dull, almost dark views through the EVF occur less frequently. It seems that the electronics in the camera are sensitive to environmental conditions such as temperature, humidity and may be too rapid repeated use. Although I have never been involved with electronics, I have written quite complex software before and with carefully thought out functional specifications with operational logic diagrams and error/warning conditions and good software architecture/verification, I believe it is possible to produce bug free code with good transparent coding skills. I believe you reap what you sow and with good planning and design up front, the bugs tend to be minor and relatively easy to fix. All I essentially want from my camera is to be able to repeatedly power it up and power it down and in between times in Aperture Priority Mode and single/delayed shot mode, be able to adjust the aperture, exposure compensation and ISO settings and take properly metered photos that are successfully written to the memory card. I don't think I am asking a lot. I could live with bugs in say customised settings and file labelling and security which I do not tend to use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted March 14, 2015 Share #87 Posted March 14, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mine hasn't had a fault after daily use for the last couple of years. I'm highly delighted with it and all things considered it is more versatile, reliable and more capable of doing exactly what I want my camera to do than any other I have ever owned, and there have been many. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted March 15, 2015 Share #88 Posted March 15, 2015 I actually think that the faults associated with the M240 are quite complex and do not necessarily appear systematic. I conclude this because I have sessions when the camera works absolutely perfectly and sessions where lockups occur quite frequently and dull, almost dark views through the EVF occur less frequently. It seems that the electronics in the camera are sensitive to environmental conditions such as temperature, humidity and may be too rapid repeated use. Although I have never been involved with electronics, I have written quite complex software before and with carefully thought out functional specifications with operational logic diagrams and error/warning conditions and good software architecture/verification, I believe it is possible to produce bug free code with good transparent coding skills. I believe you reap what you sow and with good planning and design up front, the bugs tend to be minor and relatively easy to fix. All I essentially want from my camera is to be able to repeatedly power it up and power it down and in between times in Aperture Priority Mode and single/delayed shot mode, be able to adjust the aperture, exposure compensation and ISO settings and take properly metered photos that are successfully written to the memory card. I don't think I am asking a lot. I could live with bugs in say customised settings and file labelling and security which I do not tend to use. Which firmware are you running? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted March 15, 2015 Share #89 Posted March 15, 2015 Well my MP240 Safari arrives Monday, until then I'm not sure if it will need a software update. Wednesday and Thursday I will be out in the field giving it a good workout. Hopefully any bugs/issues will have already been ironed out by Leica, fingers crossed. Whether you look at it as a working tool, or a crazy high end purchase, QC and reliability are a must. Only time will tell..I'm to old in the tooth for krap' any problems and its boxed and returned to Wetzlar with as wifey says, one of my famous letters..in terms of cameras it is not an all singing and dancing act" I just want it as intended - respond to my commands and produce those mouthwatering Leica images.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carduelis Posted March 15, 2015 Share #90 Posted March 15, 2015 Which firmware are you running? I updated the firmware once about 8 months ago I guess and am currently using version 2.0.0.12. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 15, 2015 Share #91 Posted March 15, 2015 Well my MP240 Safari arrives Monday, until then I'm not sure if it will need a software update.Wednesday and Thursday I will be out in the field giving it a good workout. Hopefully any bugs/issues will have already been ironed out by Leica, fingers crossed. Whether you look at it as a working tool, or a crazy high end purchase, QC and reliability are a must. Only time will tell..I'm to old in the tooth for krap' any problems and its boxed and returned to Wetzlar with as wifey says, one of my famous letters..in terms of cameras it is not an all singing and dancing act" I just want it as intended - respond to my commands and produce those mouthwatering Leica images.. I'm sure it will arrive with the latest firmware. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 15, 2015 Share #92 Posted March 15, 2015 Reading through these threads, one gets the impression the M (typ 240) is plagued with problems. Are there people whose copy has been trouble free? Mine (15 months - no heavy usage) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted March 17, 2015 Author Share #93 Posted March 17, 2015 All I essentially want from my camera is to be able to repeatedly power it up and power it down and in between times in Aperture Priority Mode and single/delayed shot mode, be able to adjust the aperture, exposure compensation and ISO settings and take properly metered photos that are successfully written to the memory card. Exactly what I'm hoping for when my camera arrives Wednesday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manoleica Posted March 17, 2015 Share #94 Posted March 17, 2015 My Safari arrived today, the wifey now understands why my spell at MIT was well spent.. It's a thing of beauty & mouthwateringly tactile. But oh those Menu's! Sometimes when going thro' the Menu's it seems to jump around from line to line without even touching a/any buttons!! -- Results are what I care about.. So it's back to the users manual, a glass of Remy & study... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddawn Posted March 17, 2015 Share #95 Posted March 17, 2015 Very interesting discussion going on here. I'm here at crossroads of sorts, having my M9 just verified by Leica Singapore to suffer from the sensor corrosion problem, and offered a trade up to the M240 for half the price of a new retail set (plus a bit more if I want a M-P) or wait 3 months for a new sensor (though during the 3 months i can still use my camera as I am on the wait list). I waded through similar comments and complaints about the M9 for years before I purchased mine in 2012 - it turned out to be perfect, well almost. Despite a drop, the rangefinder calibration remains perfect, I didn't lose any files from write errors despite the fact I used a variety of high speed SD cards, and the only times when I experienced lockups are when I try to shoot in continuous mode with RAW + large JPG, something i've since not done, and have got no lockups. I really love my M9 and I do trust it at all times. However, with digital Leicas, I always carry a backup camera of a Japanese make though I would love to take up Leica's offer of a trade-up, but reading the forum here, one would think the chances of getting a less than perfect M240 is really high. I HATE camera lockups - I've never experienced anything of that sort with any of my Japanese cameras. To me, lockups are a big no-no - some comments I've read are along the lines of "My M240 is perfect / problem free - except the occasional lockups which is resolved by pulling out the battery". (paraphrased..) That's not "perfect" or "problem free".... having a camera lockup in the middle of a wedding or assignment shoot is no joke.... Despite my reservations I'm sure I'll end up with a M240 soon and I hope I get one of those "problem free" units! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted March 17, 2015 Share #96 Posted March 17, 2015 People usually don't feel the need to post on a forum that their camera worked fine for the day. However, they might post something if they had a glitch to see if others experienced the same and if there's a solution to the problem. Furthermore, have you never read any problems with the M9? If you really want to play it safe, get two Canons with multiple card slots? [emoji6] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
efreed2754 Posted March 17, 2015 Share #97 Posted March 17, 2015 Happy M240 user for two years and over 5,000 images. Also pleased with M9P and over 10,000 shots. Delighted went to new M and never looked back. No problems or concerns. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 17, 2015 Share #98 Posted March 17, 2015 The current camera always draws the most heat. I would say that the M9 when still in production had more problem posts than the M240 now. Very interesting discussion going on here. I'm here at crossroads of sorts, having my M9 just verified by Leica Singapore to suffer from the sensor corrosion problem, and offered a trade up to the M240 for half the price of a new retail set (plus a bit more if I want a M-P) or wait 3 months for a new sensor (though during the 3 months i can still use my camera as I am on the wait list). I waded through similar comments and complaints about the M9 for years before I purchased mine in 2012 - it turned out to be perfect, well almost. Despite a drop, the rangefinder calibration remains perfect, I didn't lose any files from write errors despite the fact I used a variety of high speed SD cards, and the only times when I experienced lockups are when I try to shoot in continuous mode with RAW + large JPG, something i've since not done, and have got no lockups. I really love my M9 and I do trust it at all times. However, with digital Leicas, I always carry a backup camera of a Japanese make though I would love to take up Leica's offer of a trade-up, but reading the forum here, one would think the chances of getting a less than perfect M240 is really high. I HATE camera lockups - I've never experienced anything of that sort with any of my Japanese cameras. To me, lockups are a big no-no - some comments I've read are along the lines of "My M240 is perfect / problem free - except the occasional lockups which is resolved by pulling out the battery". (paraphrased..) That's not "perfect" or "problem free".... having a camera lockup in the middle of a wedding or assignment shoot is no joke.... Despite my reservations I'm sure I'll end up with a M240 soon and I hope I get one of those "problem free" units! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 17, 2015 Share #99 Posted March 17, 2015 The current camera always draws the most heat. I would say that the M9 when still in production had more problem posts than the M240 now. Without question…and that was before the sensor corrosion issues. People have short memories, or are new to the party. Most early complaints about the M240 were about color…and, guess what, so were those pertaining to the M9...even worse. Plus sensor cracks, red edge, SD card compatibility problems, freezes, buffer issues, discreet mode lock-ups (never solved), and more. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carduelis Posted March 17, 2015 Share #100 Posted March 17, 2015 I am going to update the firmware on my Leica M240 which hopefully may may do the trick. I bought my camera around May 2013; perhaps the later batches are more likely to be fault-free. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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