400 Leica photographers agree: we love CCD!

[mmradman]

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I share this, I always carry the M9 along the M - and photographs from my Monochrom are ultimate evidence of the beautiful rendering of the CCD

Thank you for agreeing but life goes on and we must go along, realistically CCD sensor is on the way out for good and even permanent solution for M9 and MM corroding sensor is most likely going to be upgrade with next CMOS model.

 

i have disposed of my M9P (sold as part of part exchange deal for new M lens), it was nice camera and I was fortunate not to suffer from sensor corrosion while it was in my possession.

Edited May 30, 2015 by mmradman

[Samir Jahjah]

Thank you for agreeing but life goes on and we must go along, realistically CCD sensor is on the way out for good and even permanent solution for M9 and MM corroding sensor is most likely going to be upgrade with next CMOS model.

 

i have disposed of my M9P (sold as part of part exchange deal for new M lens), it was nice camera and I was fortunate not to suffer from sensor corrosion while it was in my possession.

I don't know if CCD will be out for good...some said LPs were on their way out...they have made a come back - anyway I now going out and use the M9 and M - on the Gulf of Guinea

[mmradman]

I don't know if CCD will be out for good...some said LPs were on their way out...they have made a come back - anyway I now going out and use the M9 and M - on the Gulf of Guinea

LPs and CCDs is like oranges and apples, providing who ever runs ex-Kodak operation and Leica can agree to develop replacement imaging chip with corrosion resistant surface no one else is going to step in until year 2265 when n-th generation of home chip makers enables DIY M9 chip replacement.

 

All joking aside I wish good run with your M9.

[wilfredo]

I just added my signature.  Over 570 signatures have been collected.  There is a clear demand for CCD sensors.  It's good to know my thinking is not insane!

[Samir Jahjah]

LPs and CCDs is like oranges and apples, providing who ever runs ex-Kodak operation and Leica can agree to develop replacement imaging chip with corrosion resistant surface no one else is going to step in until year 2265 when n-th generation of home chip makers enables DIY M9 chip replacement.

 

All joking aside I wish good run with your M9.

Thanks - I had fun with both, but the battery of my M9 ran out before the one in the M : bummer

[jaapv]

I just added my signature.  Over 570 signatures have been collected.  There is a clear demand for CCD sensors.  It's good to know my thinking is not insane!

Is 570 customers a viable market?

[Ai_Print]

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Is 570 customers a viable market?

No, but it could be representative of one. 

 

If one were to post the same petition for "We love the digital M" I doubt it would garner more than double the result of this one. There is certainly a market for the digital M.

 

I was looking over some M9 files from when I had one in 2010 and they do indeed have a unique look to them. I have been toying with the idea of getting one again since Fuji has no interest in fixing the stupid menu viewing issue on the X100T, but the sensor issues certainly have me cautious.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Ai_Print

[Bill Livingston]

It's not a market and as far as I can see and the idea that this would ever steer a manufacturer towards revisiting a sensor already prone to such severe defects they have to replace them outside warranty until there is no more supply left, is naive beyond comprehension.

 

If on the other hand, it is simply a way for people to communicate their satisfaction of the image quality for a product they already own, then fine. The earlier M digitals have a character many of their owners hold in very high regard... and that is pleasing to see.

 

It also means potential newcomers to Leica have a window of opportunity to explore the M series with much less risk and a lower entry point than would have been the case had Leica not done the best they could under the circumstances and supported both existing owners and potential owners. There will be a few more years yet before these cameras will be irrepairable and therefore worthless.

 

Something that cannot be said for much of the competition.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Livingston

[pico]

A better poll might be:

 

If you would like Leica to re-introduce a CCD full frame M, then to make it so, have your credit card ready when you vote because we must take it as a pre-order for  when and if we have enough to make a profitable run. There will be a 15% charge if you withdraw your payment after our commitment. The retail price of the body, a chrome model of the M9 with engraving "ich danach gefragt" will be 30% more than whatever our best volume  current product  price because you have proven it to be so correct. Serial numbers will start at IDG 1.

 

 Sounds good, doesn't it?

Edited May 31, 2015 by pico

[jaapv]

Leica aims for  at least ten years  of technical support after production ends. As for sensors, it would be strange if there were not a contract in place for continued production and supply for that decade.

The Digilux2 is from 2003 IIRC. As far as I am aware Leica still replaces the sensors for free when they show their well-known defect.

[pop]

Leica seem to have promised to find a sensor coating which is not prone to corrosion. Assuming that they are going to make another one and don't re-coat the failed ones, there might be a small incentive to use the sensor 2.0 for more than just fixing old cameras. Where there's Leica, there's hope.

[pop]

Leica aims for  at least ten years  of technical support after production ends. As for sensors, it would be strange if there were not a contract in place for continued production and supply for that decade.

The Digilux2 is from 2003 IIRC. As far as I am aware Leica still replaces the sensors for free when they show their well-known defect.

There have been changes. It seems that they still replace them but not for free, IIRC.

[Prosophos]

Leica seem to have promised to find a sensor coating which is not prone to corrosion. Assuming that they are going to make another one and don't re-coat the failed ones, there might be a small incentive to use the sensor 2.0 for more than just fixing old cameras. Where there's Leica, there's hope.

 

Amen!

[Bill Livingston]

Unfortunately Pop and Prosophos, that was NOT what was said...

 

Dear Forum Members,

 

We have been closely following debates on the CCD sensor issue in forums and blogs and take the opinions and criticism we read very seriously. For us, it is important that we offer only technically faultless products. We are therefore particularly sorry if the imaging quality of your camera should be adversely affected by corrosion effects on the IR filter cover glass. We would also like to express our sincerest regrets to all customers who may have encountered this problem.

 

We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution. Our response to this problem is a full goodwill arrangement offering free replacement of affected CCD sensors. This goodwill arrangement applies regardless of the age of the camera and also covers sensors that have already been replaced in the past. Customers who have already been charged for the replacement of a sensor affected by this problem will receive a refund.

 

The effect does not affect the CMOS sensor of the Leica M (Typ 240). Should you, as an M customer, be considering an upgrade from your camera to a Leica M or M-P (Typ 240), Customer Care would be pleased to make you an attractive offer following a check of your camera and under consideration of the model and its age.

 

We have posted the details of the problem and the terms and conditions of our goodwill arrangement in the News section of our corporate Web site at Important Information Concerning the CCD Sensors // Global // About Leica News // Leica News // World of Leica - Leica Camera AG an have provided a link to the currently available Leica M Monochrom and M-E models. We will also be notifying our distributors regarding the new terms and conditions.

 

We are aware that Leica’s reputation for superior quality and endurance was the driving factor for your decision for Leica. We profoundly regret that we have been unable to completely fulfil our promise to you and our own standards from the outset. We are now making every effort to find a permanent and satisfactory technical solution for this problem and hope that our goodwill arrangement is able to rebuild and maintain your trust in the Leica brand!

 

Best regards,

 

Stefan Daniel

Director

Product Management Photo

Edited May 31, 2015 by Livingston

[pop]

We have now identified the problem and are currently concentrating our efforts on finding a permanent technical solution.

 

Replacing failed sensors by failing sensors would in my opinion not be a "permanent technical solution" but a temporary fix.

[Bill Livingston]

A permanent technical solution could aso be a replace the camera at a concessionary price.

 

The fact is, it MAY be possible that Leica decide to commission a new CCD and use that to replace the existing sensor in every M8, M8.2, M9, M9-P, ME and MM, all at no cost to the current owner - because they are all possible future failures.

 

The downside of that is the development cost and time to find a full technical solution, the service cost and the subsequent increase in service times to other customers.

 

Overall this would result in a huge cost to Leica and to at the detriment of other customers who are already suffering extended service times... and this could potentially go on for years.

 

No sensible company would look at this, weigh up the overall costs and other issues and then decide to go ahead with this option... unless they decided to go with a new CCD sensor in future models. That is a possibility. But why would they do that given the decision already made to move to the new CMOS sensor with its advantages determined significant enough to use at the core of their new series of cameras?

 

Maybe a simple, basic rangefinder only M with a CCD sensor, no live view, no video, lower price, maybe even(unlikely though it is) a smaller size... Would that work, or would it impact too strongly on the current and future M cameras...?

 

I know many many owners and potential owners would find this a compelling option, I can see it too, but would Leica go down this road and suffer the potential loss of sales of new models?

 

These are all complicated questions with very difficult to predict outcomes.

 

I would far rather see Leica as a financially astute company who decides to draw a line under the sensor issues, support existing customers in the short to medium term and offer new M series cameras at reduced prices to existing CCD owners and remove the failed cameras from the market entirely over a period of five to ten years.

 

At least they would still be in business and looking forward.

Edited May 31, 2015 by Livingston

[DandA]

"Maybe a simple, basic rangefinder only M with a CCD sensor, no live view, no video, lower price, maybe even(unlikely though it is) a smaller size"

 

I think many would like to see this option in both a CCD based as well as CMOS based camer. Already many M users don't want or need video, live view/focus peaking etc. If they did support fabrication of a new CCD, I could see them using it in a new alternative model in addition to CMOS based ones...and maybe use the same sensor as a replacement in affected MM1 and M9 bodies.

[DandA]

"Maybe a simple, basic rangefinder only M with a CCD sensor, no live view, no video, lower price, maybe even(unlikely though it is) a smaller size"

 

I think many would like to see this option in both a CCD based as well as CMOS based camer. Already many M users don't want or need video, live view/focus peaking etc. If they did support fabrication of a new CCD, I could see them using it in a new alternative model in addition to CMOS based ones...and maybe use the same sensor as a replacement in affected MM1 and M9 bodies.

[Bill Livingston]

If they did support fabrication of a new CCD, I could see them using it in a new alternative model in addition to CMOS based ones...and maybe use the same sensor as a replacement in affected MM1 and M9 bodies.

That was what I was saying and the ONLY reason why anyone would even contemplate revisiting CCD as a way out of the sensor corrosion debacle.

 

But I can't help thinking that a camera based on CCD (you may as well leave focus and movie in the CMOS versions as there is actually almost no cost in implementation) would have too much of an impact on future sales unless you call it the new ME, in which case it would be cheaper for everyone to simply use that camera as an option for the trade in concession.

 

Either way, it makes no sense to upgrade a sensor FOC for as long as it takes to replace ALL of them...

 

Ergo my reasoning that no matter what happens, the most sensible approach in the long term is to trade the M8/9 series of cameras in against new models... Whether it is (unlikely) a new ME/MM CCD camera or a 240 or above M camera (most likely). Given that reasoning, it would be far cheaper and less risky for Leica to be MUCH more generous in their trade in pricing.

 

It would be cheaper in the long run.

 

I'm really at a loss as to why anyone would think differently if they looked at it dispassionately...

Edited May 31, 2015 by Livingston

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[Prosophos]

That was what I was saying and the ONLY reason why anyone would even contemplate revisiting CCD as a way out of the sensor corrosion debacle.

 

But I can't help thinking that a camera based on CCD (you may as well leave focus and movie in the CMOS versions as there is actually almost no cost in implementation) would have too much of an impact on future sales unless you call it the new ME, in which case it would be cheaper for everyone to simply use that camera as an option for the trade in concession.

 

Either way, it makes no sense to upgrade a sensor FOC for as long as it takes to replace ALL of them...

 

Ergo my reasoning that no matter what happens, the most sensible approach in the long term is to trade the M8/9 series of cameras in against new models... Whether it is (unlikely) a new ME/MM CCD camera or a 240 or above M camera (most likely). Given that reasoning, it would be far cheaper and less risky for Leica to be MUCH more generous in their trade in pricing.

 

It would be cheaper in the long run.

 

I'm really at a loss as to why anyone would think differently if they looked at it dispassionately...

 

 

Many of us who appreciate the M9 sensor are not really interested in trading-in, or trading-"up" (I've owend two M-240 cameras and one M-P(240), and by far prefer the image rendering of the M9/MM1).

 

The business considerations for Leica are certainly important, however.  And I would never presume to know what's best for Leica in that context.

 

The letter is simply making a request, and only a request, as indicated in the opening paragraphs:

 

 

"We are humbly writing to you with a request: Please consider placing an updated CCD sensor in a future Leica M camera."

 

 

Peter.