Popular Post Prosophos Posted January 26, 2015 Popular Post Share #1 Posted January 26, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) The recent issues with the current CCD sensor notwithstanding, there is a strong demand for CCD sensors in M cameras. My Open Letter to Leica has garnered over 400 signatures by discerning photographers, artists, and general photo enthusiasts. Please Leica, keep CCD alive. —Peter. 33 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 26, 2015 Posted January 26, 2015 Hi Prosophos, Take a look here 400 Leica photographers agree: we love CCD!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
mikeleng Posted January 26, 2015 Share #2 Posted January 26, 2015 Well done Peter, keep up with the good work Mike 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygraphy Posted January 26, 2015 Share #3 Posted January 26, 2015 Yeoch... 400 is a pretty low number 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted January 26, 2015 Share #4 Posted January 26, 2015 OP...and the rest of the 400 photogs...post your comparison pix of M9 vs M240 to back up your clam. If you can't back it up, move on with new tech and let go of the old tech. The CCD would have to be *a lot* better than the M240 as the M240 is not anything to write home about as-is with its sensor. I think you are stuck in camera fondling fantasy land. But since I never used a M9, I only used MM's and M240's, I am ignorant on the subject. If you want to get petitions going then send one to Fuji to make a $2500 28mp Leica rangefinder knockoff or send a petition to Leica to hire Fuji to make its sensors. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeleng Posted January 26, 2015 Share #5 Posted January 26, 2015 Hi Dant Your Leica MM has the CCD sensor just like the M9, thats his point . 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 26, 2015 Share #6 Posted January 26, 2015 I've disabled LV and video on my M240 (menu option) and the IQ is as good or better than my (CCD based) M8.2 as well as the M9 I tested. So, I get a better RF camera….quieter, better RF and more robust…with no sacrifice in my print quality. Just out of curiosity, did you make prints using an M240 before drawing your conclusions? I have no problem with the petition, or with folks having a contrary view. But I do wonder how much is experience based versus long held belief. Jeff Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 27, 2015 Share #7 Posted January 27, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry to break the news but nobody cares about the perceived needs of 400 photographers. A camera built for 400 (or 1000) customers would have to be ludicrously expensive and I rather doubt those 400 photographers would be prepared to pay that price. 13 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted January 27, 2015 Share #8 Posted January 27, 2015 Sorry to break the news but nobody cares about the perceived needs of 400 photographers. A camera built for 400 (or 1000) customers would have to be ludicrously expensive and I rather doubt those 400 photographers would be prepared to pay that price. Please define ludicrous. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted January 27, 2015 Share #9 Posted January 27, 2015 I am a big fan of CCD sensors in daylight and keeping the CCD sensor alive doesn't mean that Leica have to develop new CCD cameras. Just fix the sensor glass issue on the current CCD sensors and keep the M-E and MM in production and supported parallel to the new CMOS offerings. What is so wrong with that? 8 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anusia Posted January 27, 2015 Share #10 Posted January 27, 2015 If you want to get petitions going then send one to Fuji to make a $2500 28mp Leica rangefinder knockoff or send a petition to Leica to hire Fuji to make its sensors. Why not start a petition to Fuji yourself .... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bla Posted January 27, 2015 Share #11 Posted January 27, 2015 I've disabled LV and video on my M240 (menu option) and the IQ is as good or better than my (CCD based) M8.2 as well as the M9 I tested. So, I get a better RF camera….quieter, better RF and more robust…with no sacrifice in my print quality. I wonder why the CCD sensor of the M9 or in this case even the M8 is always compared to the CMOS sensor of (in the case of M240 not quite) state-of-the-art cameras. Obviously a much newer camera has a better sensor. At the time of arrival the Leica CCD cameras could hold their own quite well. So why assume that a new, top tech CCD wouldn't be better if as has been shown the M9 at base ISO can be as good as the M240? And people do like the M8 as well. Much more than other cameras of that generation which crumble to dust in long forgotten drawers... Just my two cents. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRIago Posted January 27, 2015 Share #12 Posted January 27, 2015 I've disabled LV and video on my M240 (menu option) and the IQ is as good or better than my (CCD based) M8.2 as well as the M9 I tested. So, I get a better RF camera….quieter, better RF and more robust…with no sacrifice in my print quality. Just out of curiosity, did you make prints using an M240 before drawing your conclusions? I have no problem with the petition, or with folks having a contrary view. But I do wonder how much is experience based versus long held belief. Jeff 1) The IQ might be as good or better to you. Not to me. I don't need high ISO or better DR or whatever else because honestly, to my eye, in low ISO, the CCD has the edge. 2) Quieter. I give you that, but so what? I use my M9 on discreet mode, so it makes no difference at all to me. So the M240 won't do anything better here to my use. 3) Better RF - I give you that as well. But so what? All my M's viewfinder are fine. M3, M6 classic and M9. So it makes no difference at all to me, again. The M240 won't do anything better here to my use. 4) More robust. True? I guess. But so what? My M3 and M6 are still working pretty damn fine, and who knows what's gonna happen in a few years to the M240? Problems might arrive at some point. So the M240 won't do anything better here to my use. There you have it. It's all relative, personal preference. And to me, none of the bells and whistles of the M240 are enough to justify it over the M9. Simply because it's image quality - in low ISO - to my eye, doesn't look as good as the CCD. The M240 is also fat and ugly. The M9 is way more sexier of a camera and that, to me, counts a lot. That's one of the reasons I use Leicas. But you see? It's my personal point of view, yours might be different. Is the M240 better for some people? Maybe. That's why we all have plenty of options out there. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosophos Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share #13 Posted January 27, 2015 Sorry to break the news but nobody cares about the perceived needs of 400 photographers. A camera built for 400 (or 1000) customers would have to be ludicrously expensive and I rather doubt those 400 photographers would be prepared to pay that price. Oh no! Michael, thank you so much for delivering this news to us. Quick question for you: if Leica made a new M camera with an updated CCD sensor, do you think only 400 (or 1,000) would purchase it? —Peter. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torgian Posted January 27, 2015 Share #14 Posted January 27, 2015 I have to say... 400 is not much. I like my M-240. It has a nice sensor. I print a lot of my photos. Never used an M9, but I'm not one for the technicalities of how a camera makes its image anyway; besides I'd rather worry more about my glass than the sensor. Get your petition up into the tens of thousands, then it might cause a little noise. But, get them into the hundreds of thousands, THEN you can possibly get somewhere. I would start with Fuji though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosophos Posted January 27, 2015 Author Share #15 Posted January 27, 2015 1) The IQ might be as good or better to you. Not to me. I don't need high ISO or better DR or whatever else because honestly, to my eye, in low ISO, the CCD has the edge. 2) Quieter. I give you that, but so what? I use my M9 on discreet mode, so it makes no difference at all to me. So the M240 won't do anything better here to my use. 3) Better RF - I give you that as well. But so what? All my M's viewfinder are fine. M3, M6 classic and M9. So it makes no difference at all to me, again. The M240 won't do anything better here to my use. 4) More robust. True? I guess. But so what? My M3 and M6 are still working pretty damn fine, and who knows what's gonna happen in a few years to the M240? Problems might arrive at some point. So the M240 won't do anything better here to my use. There you have it. It's all relative, personal preference. And to me, none of the bells and whistles of the M240 are enough to justify it over the M9. Simply because it's image quality - in low ISO - to my eye, doesn't look as good as the CCD. The M240 is also fat and ugly. The M9 is way more sexier of a camera and that, to me, counts a lot. That's one of the reasons I use Leicas. But you see? It's my personal point of view, yours might be different. Is the M240 better for some people? Maybe. That's why we all have plenty of options out there. I'll add that 2, 3, and 4 can be incorporated into a future M body with an updated CCD sensor (whether it's an entirely brand new sensor, or an improved - non-corroding - version of the current one). It's issue #1 that seems to polarize. Still, whether one prefers CCD or not, I just don't understand why any enlightened individual would be against more choice? Are M240 owners that insecure in their choice of camera that they need to enter into positive threads like this and rain on our parade? —Peter. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torgian Posted January 27, 2015 Share #16 Posted January 27, 2015 I think it has more to do that technology must continue to be used and improved upon; I'm certain that Leica put in the new sensor into the new M, rather than the old, for good reasons. Beyond that, sensors will not last as long as a film camera; they will get replaced every four or five years (at least for me). Personally I tend to wait a couple generations before upgrading digital products. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jip Posted January 27, 2015 Share #17 Posted January 27, 2015 The technologie must be improved and worked on further, it's called CMOS Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 27, 2015 Share #18 Posted January 27, 2015 (edited) There you have it. It's all relative, personal preference. Exactly, as I've said here many times. My post only speaks for me. Choices are good. Practically speaking, I prefer the camera with fewer issues (sensor problems, card issues, etc), that's better weather sealed, has longer battery life, is quieter and smoother like my film Ms, and has a better viewing system. Plus, it offers me more flexibility for longer lenses. I still love my M8.2 for pics, but the M is just a better built and more refined machine….and for me, that was enough incentive to buy. [i hate the discreet mode on my M8.2….eventually that awful motor re-cock kicks in…and the M9 still suffers from freezes for some.] I'm amused though that you consider the M "fat" (and "ugly")….size-wise I can't tell the 1mm difference between my M8.2 and M….when I put them bottom to bottom, or top to top, they're virtually identical. But if your perception varies, so be it…no concern for me. Perception is reality….but like I said in the comment you quoted, it sure helps if one actually tries something to see if perceptions change. I tried before I bought….and skipped what others thought…and made prints. Jeff Edited January 27, 2015 by Jeff S Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 27, 2015 Share #19 Posted January 27, 2015 Please define ludicrous. Like the prices Leicas typically asks for collector’s items. The problem is that while there are some people out there with enough spare change to buy the occasional limited edition, even without any intention to use it for photographic purposes, it is much harder to sell a limited edition to a bona fide photographer. They either don’t have that money or they know better than to spend it foolishly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 27, 2015 Share #20 Posted January 27, 2015 if Leica made a new M camera with an updated CCD sensor, do you think only 400 (or 1,000) would purchase it? How large is the intersection of photographers who have thought long and hard and come to the conclusion that a new and improved CCD-based camera is what they need, and those photographers able and willing to spend as much as Leica would have to ask for? Probably less than 400. Or put it this way: If you were in charge of the R&D budget of some sensor manufacturer, would you rather spend it on developing improved versions of sensors that are much in demand, or on some sensor of which you expect to sell, like, 1000 copies? How much would you have to ask for that sensor to make it worthwhile? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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