Leica M 240: It's serious drawbacks for landscape shooters – but can we fix it?

[colonel]

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Its a bit slow with RAW and it can get confused if you are in a location with a lot of strong wifi signals AND it eats your battery. Plus you need a HUGE data limit on your phone package. I really hate 'bill shock'!!!

Agree. Unlimited data though is available

 

I have found the flickr app on the iPhone very useful, actually a real breakthrough. No more SD card readers, USB cables, awkward wifi tethering or software required to be installed on the PC. Just go into the Flickr app and in the background your pictures just upload and are waiting on Flickr for edit and download, whatever computer you happen to be sitting at.

I know it's not raw and it's only the iPhone but I think the principle is the future .....

Edited September 2, 2015 by colonel

[jaapv]

Getting back on topic:

 

Do we really feel lack of detail and presence on the M240?

 

 

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[Mornnb]

Yep- and without it you would have unacceptable noise.. I don't think I handheld my shot for ten seconds...

 

I would rather spend the hours in Lightroom to remove the noise, than to miss the shot.

 

I live in Sydney, I'm quite familiar with photographing fireworks.

This with my Canon 5D III for the new years eve, I wouldn't use the Leica M to shoot this due to limitations. The second exposure could have had me miss the grand finale! 

 

Sydney NYE 2014 by mornnb, on Flickr

 

Sydney NYE 2014 by mornnb, on Flickr

Edited September 4, 2015 by Mornnb

[jaapv]

The type of noise that is eliminated by the Black Frame Reduction cannot be removed in postprocessing. The problem seems to be that the sensor in the M heats up relatively fast due to space restraints. FWIIW.

 

The only solution appears to be to bring another camera for long exposures, the Leica simply cannot do it.

[bab]

Maybe try guessing what are the good things a Leica m240 can do! Then use it for that, you can buy two or three cameras with lenses for your night photography (a very lonely style for me even when I was 16 I didn't much care for it). Oh ya by the way don't try shooting small kids running around close up with the M I found its not only hard to focus but sometimes they jump on you and knock the camera into your nose. Another difficult set of images is birds unless their stuffed.

street, portraits, sunsets, buildings, vistas, crouds at sporting events, landscapes, flowers, trees, forest, colors, objects, clouds, dusk, shadows, fog, parties (not in clubs), and many more endless opportunities await you just need to go out with your Leica M 240 and shoot 1000 frames a day for a month and then any camera you pick up will be a pain in the ass to deal with...FWIW

[Tmuussoni]

Wow, it's been a while since I checked my topic last time.
 

@Tmuussoni,

Every camera system has its limitations.  Perhaps the M240 is not the best choice of camera for astrophotography or other pursuits that require an exposure over 60 seconds. 

 

"I truly believe these issues are serious drawbacks for each and everyone of us."  That is just not the case for me personally, and I would suspect that there are tens of thousands of M240 and/or M-P shooters walking this planet who would agree.

 

"As we all know anyone who is serious about landscape shooting these issues render the M almost useless."  Huh??  "Almost useless?"  JMHO buy you are WAAAAY off in the ditch on that one. 

 

"...try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are."  I'm not even sure how to respond to that one.  Actually, I do know how to respond.  I would suggest to you that photography is not a competitive sport with "winners" and "losers."  Photography is not a race where cars have been replaced by cameras.  I have found that it is more productive to not concern myself with what the other guy is doing or getting and work on improving my own photography.

 

JMHO/YMMV.

 

Herr Carlos, I am fully aware every camera system has their limitations. And as explained earlier I did get bit carried away the way I wrote the opening post so my apologies for that.  I just believe in the year of our lord 2015 we should have bulb mode as demonstrated by every other camera company. But Leica is the only one lacking it. That's it. We should be on the same side and try get Leica to listen to us. By the way, we are only limited to 8 seconds when you increase the ISO, so the issue becomes even bigger. To me it doesn't matter what kind of photography you do, landscape or astrophotography, that is not the point.  I am just worried about the latest Leica pattern of releasing brand new cameras with new technology and yet they still lack a bulb mode. Leica T, Leica Q type 116 and if I had to guess upcoming interchangeable lens version of the Leica Q is also going to be lacking a bulb mode as it's based on Q type 116. Yes at this point it is still speculation so only time will tell. I am simply worried the lack of bulb mode seems to be limitation set by Leica marketing team or board of directors instead of being actual hardware problem. I just can't believe all the new technology in T and Q and yet they still can't do bulb mode. I want my Leica body to give me a bulb mode, it feels so silly to get a second camera system just because of lack of bulb mode. I don't care how they do it, just do it. If overheating remains a problem (I seriously doubt it since it's not a problem for any other manufacturer) maybe they should do it the Sony way. When the shutter is set to bulb in Sony A7 series the linear, pre-tone-curve, bit depth of the camera is 12 bits. 12 bits is still better than no bulb mode at all.

Edited September 6, 2015 by Tmuussoni

[becker]

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Getting back on topic:

 

Do we really feel lack of detail and presence on the M240?

 

Red corners available still - that file does not look too clear, of course the net is not  helpful in that, may be forums compression for reason what ever… 

 

I know guys building a house with a nail and a hammer, high end craftmanship is not at all only the tool (s)     

[Tmuussoni]

Fireworks? What is the problem with fireworks??? One can get decent shots, any number of them, with just about any camera..

M240, Olympus Zuiko OM 75-150 Not even a tripod...

This is a beautiful shot! But I bet you would have got even more keepers, if you have had the ability to turn off long exposure noise reduction

[jaapv]

 

Red corners available still - that file does not look too clear, of course the net is not  helpful in that, may be forums compression for reason what ever… 

 

I know guys building a house with a nail and a hammer, high end craftmanship is not at all only the tool (s)     

 ? Red corners? not really, that is natural 18 mm vignetting And yes, net JPG compression does not really do it justice. But I might be forgiven for not dragging MF gear into the heat of the Arushan desert.

[pico]

As a matter of idle interest, just how much and what kind of photography requires B mode?

Astrophotography, other than star trails certainly does not need it, and then there are

digital work-arounds for very much of it. (Star-trails are now as much a cliche as sunsets.)

 

Check into the Rule of 600 for some tips on exposures for astrophotography. With Leica's

fast and sharp lenses, wide-view night sky pictures are a cinch, technically. Of course

like any kind of landscape it still requires personal vision, expertise.

 

 

 

[Mornnb]

As a matter of idle interest, just how much and what kind of photography requires B mode?

 

 

Landscape involving water (such as Sydney Harbour or various lakes)

For certain water smoothing effects, exposures as long as 5 or 10 minutes can be useful.

[erl]

Choose a tool that will do it. Simple!

[jmahto]

As a matter of idle interest, just how much and what kind of photography requires B mode?

Astrophotography, other than star trails certainly does not need it, and then there are

digital work-arounds for very much of it. (Star-trails are now as much a cliche as sunsets.)

 

Check into the Rule of 600 for some tips on exposures for astrophotography. With Leica's

fast and sharp lenses, wide-view night sky pictures are a cinch, technically. Of course

like any kind of landscape it still requires personal vision, expertise.

Not that I am an expert in star trail and other night sky photography, but I have experienced limitations with M making it almost unusable for this kind of photography. This is my summary:

- Star trail in digital world requires shooting many long shutter pics (~30sec) back to back and stitching. M's NR gap creates gaps in the trail. Also it is not easy to add interval timer for actuating shutter every 30 sec. My cheap Nex is more suitable for the job. Two examples are below. Since they are not leica, I am giving links.

 

Stitched star trail from Sony (stitched in PP):

https://flic.kr/p/weEZNh

 

Lightning. I had to keep taking 25sec shots in 30 sec intervals to maximize my chances of catching the lightning. No way I can do that with M.

https://flic.kr/p/x268HY

 

However I want to add that I don't want to do the above with M since it ties up the camera for hours. I would rather use M in parallel for other opportunities. But then you have quick shots of stars and Milky way that I would expect M to do. In this case the serious drawback for M is bad high ISO response and banding when you lift dark areas such as sky. Below is the example of Milky way that I attempted with M240 and 15CV V2. It was shot at 800 ISO, 60sec at f4.5 and exposure lifted by +1.2 in post (even more so for edges to lift vignetting). It is processed entirely in LR5. The crop shows how bad it looks. (The star streaks are due to 60sec and would have been better at 30sec but then I can't raise ISO to 3200 to compensate for 30sec and 1 stop lift). This is what you get with M whereas Canon 5D III does better (My friend shot the same with his Canon therefore I know.... not satisfactory to my eyes but certainly better) 

 

There is a water fall (Alamere Falls) in the foreground exposed by lightpainting using headlamp.

 

Full pic (maybe slight crop for aesthetics and level):

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Crop of right edge (1:1):

 

Edited September 8, 2015 by jmahto

[jmahto]

Choose a tool that will do it. Simple!

Yes, and I will agree for more complicated stuff but it is not too much to ask for comparable high ISO performance and ability to switch off NR. This doesn't go against the gestalt of Leica. Does it?

[jaapv]

I wouldn't use a Nex either, I find the Nex 7 not much better than the 240 at high ISO in any case. More in-camera noise reduction, but after PP the M240 images are better to my eye.

Nor would I use any Canon 5D. The camera to use for this kind of work is the Sony A7s IMO.

[jmahto]

I wouldn't use a Nex either, I find the Nex 7 not much better than the 240 at high ISO in any case. More in-camera noise reduction, but after PP the M240 images are better to my eye.

Nor would I use any Canon 5D. The camera to use for this kind of work is the Sony A7s IMO.

I do plan to test out A7s. I was not happy with 5D III output either. Btw, I use Nex for cheap interval timer not due to high ISO for which I agree with your observation.

[Mornnb]

Choose a tool that will do it. Simple!

 

My Canon 5D Mark III is not very good at landscape because of it's low dynamic range and noisy shadows, the Leica has a better sensor for landscape in spite of the lack of a real bulb mode.

So the tool that will do landscape best is a Sony A7R II. I don't want a Sony, I just want to be able to use my lovely Leica for very long exposures.

Edited September 8, 2015 by Mornnb

[jmahto]

BTW, I don't know whether it is a bug or a feature in my M240. I could go 60 full seconds on ISO 800 !! This is what I did.

- Simulate night sky by putting cap on the lens.

- Auto ISO mode with max ISO 800 to 3200. 

- 10 second delay timer. Press the shutter and notice shutter open for 60sec. After another 60 sec of NR, check the exif from the picture taken. It will show ISO 800 and 60 sec.

 

I don't know why camera chooses ISO 800 even if max auto ISO is 3200 !! In any case, the shutter is open much longer than the case when you set specific ISO as 800 or if you don't use timer.

 

Is it only my body that does it or it is a hidden feature?

As for my Milkyway picture, I am getting 8x10 printed in local drugstore. I want to see how much grain shows up. If not then I will do a much bigger canvas print after some processing. Will post the results.

Edited September 8, 2015 by jmahto

[Tmuussoni]

As a matter of idle interest, just how much and what kind of photography requires B mode?

Astrophotography, other than star trails certainly does not need it, and then there are

digital work-arounds for very much of it. (Star-trails are now as much a cliche as sunsets.)

 

Check into the Rule of 600 for some tips on exposures for astrophotography. With Leica's

fast and sharp lenses, wide-view night sky pictures are a cinch, technically. Of course

like any kind of landscape it still requires personal vision, expertise.

Oh, it's a long, long list. Sunsets, sunrises,astrophotography, star trails, northern lights, cityscapes with long exposures (e.g. if you want to do creative shots like moving cars on the freeway). Here in the nordic countries when the winter is coming also the light is more scarce. Far too often 60 seconds (ISO 200) is just not even nearly enough what I need. Not to mention a typical Northern Light exposure is on my experience is something like ISO 3200 and 25-30 seconds. Something the M can't do. Although I am aware of Lux 21mm ASPH and 24mm ASPH and they are fantastic lenses. But I don't think I ever would get one of them for astrophotography. I have seen some coma with those lenses and I am not sure if 6000€ for a lens like that is entirely justifiable for this purpose. And I am not that rich. Adapted Samyang 24mm f/1.4 is a great lens for this kind of stuff. Nevertheless, my 1st choise is and remains the Super-Elmar 21mm f/3.4 for all landscape work. No coma, uniform sharpness across the field (not like the Summiluxes often have), fantastic colors, but yet I am sometimes unable to make the shot due to lack of bulb mode.

 

Some examples what I mean:

• https://www.flickr.com/groups/bigstopper/pool/
• https://www.flickr.com/groups/1355694@N23/pool/
• http://images2.laweekly.com/imager/la-carpool-lanes-open-to-all-at-night-i/u/original/4233741/405_freeway_albert_valles_flickr_law.jpg

Have a nice weekend

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Tmuussoni]

BTW, I don't know whether it is a bug or a feature in my M240. I could go 60 full seconds on ISO 800 !! This is what I did.

- Simulate night sky by putting cap on the lens.

- Auto ISO mode with max ISO 800 to 3200. 

- 10 second delay timer. Press the shutter and notice shutter open for 60sec. After another 60 sec of NR, check the exif from the picture taken. It will show ISO 800 and 60 sec.

 

I don't know why camera chooses ISO 800 even if max auto ISO is 3200 !! In any case, the shutter is open much longer than the case when you set specific ISO as 800 or if you don't use timer.

 

Is it only my body that does it or it is a hidden feature?

 

As for my Milkyway picture, I am getting 8x10 printed in local drugstore. I want to see how much grain shows up. If not then I will do a much bigger canvas print after some processing. Will post the results.

 

 

I am going to try this. But I seriously doubt it works like this. ISO 800 and 60 seconds would be more useful if this is true. Thanks