Leica M 240: It's serious drawbacks for landscape shooters – but can we fix it?

[jaapv]

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Regarding noise reduction: On the M8/9 you could see the image changing under influence of the noise reduction. Believe me, the original image was totally unusable....

[mjh]

However, I have always enjoyed landscape shooting the most. I was aware of the drawbacks of M 240 when I purchased it. If you don't know what I am talking about I mean the following problems:

 

- One minute maximum exposure = It's a disgrace to even call it bulb mode

- No way to turn off LENR (Long exposure noise reduction) = practical disadvantage: try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are

- Long exposure with high ISO is even more limited = astrophotography is impossible

- Inability to move the focus point on live view when zoomed in

With the exception of the last point I don’t quite see the relevance for landscape photography. Also, previous incarnations of the M have successfully been used for landscape photography even though the rangefinder patch could not be moved outside the image center either.

 

The limitation of the magnification option in live-view mode is an issue that has been discussed from day one; in fact it was one of the questions we had asked Stefan Daniel when we had a chance to try out a pre-production version of the M (Typ 240) in Solms. The answer back then was the same as it is now: Sorry, but there are technical limitations rendering it impossible to move the enlarged section of the image. Leica was and is aware of the fact that photographers would much prefer the area to be moveable and in fact that is what they would prefer themselves, still it cannot be done. Sorry ’bout that.

 

The limitations of long exposures and the mandatory dark frame subtraction was a design decision informed by Leica’s quality standards. I suppose they could change this, if they wanted, but I don’t think they will. About 2 years into the product cycle it would be a bit late for second thoughts anyway.

[keithlaban.co.uk]

If the next M doesn't allow the focus point to be moved when using live view zoomed I won't be buying.

[Guest JonathanP]

Tmuussoni brings up some valid points and its a shame that its hard to raise any questions about M240 performance without the knee-jerk "you bought the wrong camera" response. I don't think that reflects well on this community but it seems to be the norm for many internet forums. I wonder if people would have said that to Tmuussoni's face?

 

The limitations of long exposures and the mandatory dark frame subtraction was a design decision informed by Leica’s quality standards. I suppose they could change this, if they wanted, but I don’t think they will. About 2 years into the product cycle it would be a bit late for second thoughts anyway.

 

Unfortunately I think you are right. I would like to see the option of disabling the dark frame subtraction and extending the exposure time. Its often possible to improve on processing algorithms out of the camera on a PC where you have significantly more resources available to throw at the problem; that option should be available to the user. I would also question whether Leica’s quality standards are the final arbiter of quality when for example they won't acknowledge and fix the non-linear raw channel response (aka the "green shadows"). Not sure that "we know best" is always the most appropriate answer to a customer.

 

Jonathan

[jaapv]

Tmuussoni brings up some valid points and its a shame that its hard to raise any questions about M240 performance without the knee-jerk "you bought the wrong camera" response. I don't think that reflects well on this community but it seems to be the norm for many internet forums. I wonder if people would have said that to Tmuussoni's face?

 

 

 

Unfortunately I think you are right. I would like to see the option of disabling the dark frame subtraction and extending the exposure time. Its often possible to improve on processing algorithms out of the camera on a PC where you have significantly more resources available to throw at the problem; that option should be available to the user. I would also question whether Leica’s quality standards are the final arbiter of quality when for example they won't acknowledge and fix the non-linear raw channel response (aka the "green shadows"). Not sure that "we know best" is always the most appropriate answer to a customer.

 

Jonathan

There is no way to simulate dark frame subtraction in post processing.

[Tmuussoni]

In support of the OP I find the M240 a great landscape tool

Exposures longer then a minute are unusual for landscapes though. Not a limitation for me, even on night shots.

Not for astro-photography where I presume a Canon 60Da is a better tool ?

 

I like to use several filters, such as 6 or 10 stop ND filters. When shooting shooting sunrises/sunsets, typical apertures are from f/8 to f/11. One minute exposure limit is almost never enough. And for astrophography I am not talking any hardcore stuff. I am not planning send my M to the space to shoot the Orion nebula. I don't need the 60Da. I like to shoot simple things like the milky way and star trails, where typical exposures are 30 seconds and ISO 3200-6400. Sadly this kind of photography is not possible with the M. But I would love to do this the most with the M, as the SEM 21 is such special optics: sharp corner to wide open and I never seen any Coma problems.

 

In support of the OP I find the M240 a great landscape tool

 

- One minute maximum exposure = It's a disgrace to even call it bulb mode

Perhaps Leica implemented this to protect the sensor ??? I am sure a software fix is easy

- No way to turn off LENR (Long exposure noise reduction) = practical disadvantage: try shooting fireworks when the guy next to you is going to get twice as many shots as you are

I agree this would be useful. Also a simple software fix

- Inability to move the focus point on live view when zoomed in

This can be done in software. However for landscape or astro photography the lens should be closed down so not sure why this is a major issue as focus and recompose could be used.

 

rgds

 

The real answer for the first point can only come from Leica as suppose. For me it would be interested to know the real reason why they decided to omit long exposures. As it stands today, the CMOS sensor in the M is the only sensor I am aware of today which has such limitations. Overheating? Too high readout noise? Too noisy CMOS AD conversion? Some other hardware issue? Or most likely to me, Leica's general principle to not tolerate any hot pixels. Even if you use LENR. To me this is somewhat flawed principle. Yet I never ever heard someone breaking their CMOS sensors in any cameras by taking too long exposures. For second point, yes, having the ability to turn of LENR would be huge benefit. There are some situations where it is critical you are going to get all the shots you want.

 

It seems it's just not the camera for you... I mean you've bought a Leica M not some Nikon... if you want features stay away from Leica please.

 

Wow, that is just... mean

 

Regarding noise reduction: On the M8/9 you could see the image changing under influence of the noise reduction. Believe me, the original image was totally unusable....

 

For the CCD based M8/M9 I understand these issues. To think of it I can't really remember any CCD consumer cameras which would be particularly good in long exposures. Maybe some special Phase One MFDBs, which have ability to keep the sensor cool for long exposures due to the great cooling system. But those things are not exactly cheap. Nor small. For normal consumers CMOS definately has an advantage here. I guess there is a reason why CMOS has overtaken CCD in noise performance and is now beginning to displace CCDs in research instrumentation.

 

With the exception of the last point I don’t quite see the relevance for landscape photography. Also, previous incarnations of the M have successfully been used for landscape photography even though the rangefinder patch could not be moved outside the image center either.

 

The limitation of the magnification option in live-view mode is an issue that has been discussed from day one; in fact it was one of the questions we had asked Stefan Daniel when we had a chance to try out a pre-production version of the M (Typ 240) in Solms. The answer back then was the same as it is now: Sorry, but there are technical limitations rendering it impossible to move the enlarged section of the image. Leica was and is aware of the fact that photographers would much prefer the area to be moveable and in fact that is what they would prefer themselves, still it cannot be done. Sorry ’bout that.

 

The limitations of long exposures and the mandatory dark frame subtraction was a design decision informed by Leica’s quality standards. I suppose they could change this, if they wanted, but I don’t think they will. About 2 years into the product cycle it would be a bit late for second thoughts anyway.

 

Thank you for the answering. To be fair not beeing able to move the zoomed view is the least of my concerns. I suspect you are right about the product cycle. By now all eyes and money are shifting on the successor of the M. I will certainly hope for it to have a real bulb mode. Is it too silly to hope to use only one body, which I happen to like the most, would be able to do all the photography you like? And all I want is a simple bulb mode and ability to turn of LENR.

 

And when it comes to Live View, I am aware that folks who used M8/M9 are getting some great shots even without Live View. But I think Live View is hugely beneficial for compositions and for those who like to use external filter holders. And as we know those things will block the viewfinder. Also it's easier to see the filter effect directly on the Live View. This will improve the landscape shots considerably. For this reason alone I think M is a worthy update over M8/M9!

[sillbeers15]

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I was also disappointed with the longest exposure time of one minute from the M240.

However nothing stops me from using it for landscape shooting.

 

With my tripod almost fully submerged under water with 2" dry for my M240 & 21mm Lux @ F16, 7sec exposure, I captured below image last Christmas Eve.

 

雲山水溪 by sillbeers15

[Guest JonathanP]

There is no way to simulate dark frame subtraction in post processing.

 

I was't really thinking of trying to simulate the dark frame noise, but by letting me turn it off I could take one or more dark frames before or after a series of exposures - and use those in post processing. As per Jim Kasson http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/305366-what-do-you-want-next-digital-30.html#post2865237:

 

The sad truth is that single shot black frame subtraction is a crude way to deal with dark current. It reduces frame-to-frame-invariant noise, but actually increases frame-to-frame-variant noise by a factor of 1.414. A better way is to make a series of 16 or so dark exposures and average them to produce a correcting image that can be subtracted from the real ones to reduce dark-current noise. An immense benefit in most circumstances is that the real exposures can be made with no delay in between. A disadvantage is the requirement to precede or follow the real exposures with the calibration exposures. There are several programs that automate the process. One is called Images Plus.

 

That way I don't get the inconvenience of dark frame exposure on every shot and potentially I can improve upon the noise suppression.

 

Jonathan

[jaapv]

Well, yes, but it seems hard to implement this in-camera, as the camera can never know when you want it to give it the time to make 16 dark frames -or even one. And to do it once and never again doesn't work either, as invariant is not as invariant as that. It varies over time, unlike for instance flat field correction.

I think - and clearly Leica thinks- that doing it right after each (relevant) shot is the most practical way for the user, despite the inconvenience of having to wait for the camera from time to time.

 

Anyway, I wanted to point out that the idea of turn-it-off-and-run-the-file-through-DFine is not the way to go.

Edited January 20, 2015 by jaapv

[wparsonsgisnet]

Having read all the posts I have a couple of comments.

 

1. I suspect the noise reduction black capture has to follow the picture it applies to because that capture will include the effects of the sensor that has heated up during the long exposure.

 

2. I agree that this camera is not suited to long exposures of dark skies (and other similar "landscapes"). I have tried these kinds of shots with film M's and there just isn't enough detail in the 24x36mm negative. I second the suggestion to use a medium format camera. (Of course, a panorama shot can solve part of the limited sensor size problem if there's enough daylight.)

 

3. I have been using M's since 1970 -- and there are LOTS of pictures I can't take. I recognize this and have lived with it, because the ones I can take WORK BETTER [author emphasis ]

Actually, with the live view, I can now take some of the pictures I didn't used to be able to take. I'm thinking about getting an R-zoom lens for some shots. Let's see, where's that wallet?

 

Regards to all, Bill

[fore]

I too love to use those 6-10 stop ND filters and think they are great tools in our photographic tool chest so to speak. I've read about the max 60sec B setting, but I downloaded the manual and found this:

 

In conjunction with the self-timer, a T function is also available: If B is set and the self-timer is activated by tapping the shutter release button (see also p. 150), the shutter opens automatically after the selected delay time. It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time

 

I thought this meant you can do longer than 60 s in T mode?

[bocaburger]

I must be really missing something because I've been shooting landscapes over 40 years and even in the days of ASA 25 Kodachrome I never used more than 3-stop ND grads and never needed exposures longer than 1 min.

 

With live-view, the M240 overcomes what was the biggest grumble about using a Leica for landscapes, the need to mentally compensate for frame line inaccuracy at long distances. And even that was not a big deal if you put in half an effort. I don't see at all why a moveable focus point would be such a big deal for landscape photography shooting at f/16.

 

It suprises me that such a serious landscape photographer as the OP doesn't care that Leica lenses are optimized for larger apertures and are suffering from diffraction at the apertures he shoots at. Or that the M240 does not have swings, tilts and shifts.

[bocaburger]

In conjunction with the self-timer, a T function is also available: If B is set and the self-timer is activated by tapping the shutter release button (see also p. 150), the shutter opens automatically after the selected delay time. It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time

 

I thought this meant you can do longer than 60 s in T mode?

 

I forgot about that. I do recall reading that.

 

And also I seem to recall something in one of the menus about turning long exposure NR off, but maybe I'm thinking of my 5D or Sony Nex6. The problem with owning several digital cameras, hard to keep straight what's buried in who's menus.

[pippy]

In conjunction with the self-timer, a T function is also available: If B is set and the self-timer is activated by tapping the shutter release button (see also p. 150), the shutter opens automatically after the selected delay time. It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time

 

I thought this meant you can do longer than 60 s in T mode?

Yes. Well, it works like that with the 8.2 at any rate.

 

I believe this is also the preferred method (i.e. avoiding camera shake) of how the T setting was achieved on the original Nikon F camera...

 

Philip.

 

EDIT : For once my memory worked.........:-)

Edited January 20, 2015 by pippy
Confirmation of thoughts...

[Jeffry Abt]

sillbeers15,

Beautiful image well done!

[Tmuussoni]

I too love to use those 6-10 stop ND filters and think they are great tools in our photographic tool chest so to speak. I've read about the max 60sec B setting, but I downloaded the manual and found this:

 

In conjunction with the self-timer, a T function is also available: If B is set and the self-timer is activated by tapping the shutter release button (see also p. 150), the shutter opens automatically after the selected delay time. It then remains open until you press the shutter release button a second time

 

I thought this meant you can do longer than 60 s in T mode?

 

Sadly it doesn't work like that for the M (240). No matter what you do, 60 sec is the max. exposure for the M 240. Or else I have missed something and this would be the most embarrassing thread ever :p

 

I must be really missing something because I've been shooting landscapes over 40 years and even in the days of ASA 25 Kodachrome I never used more than 3-stop ND grads and never needed exposures longer than 1 min.

 

With live-view, the M240 overcomes what was the biggest grumble about using a Leica for landscapes, the need to mentally compensate for frame line inaccuracy at long distances. And even that was not a big deal if you put in half an effort. I don't see at all why a moveable focus point would be such a big deal for landscape photography shooting at f/16.

 

It suprises me that such a serious landscape photographer as the OP doesn't care that Leica lenses are optimized for larger apertures and are suffering from diffraction at the apertures he shoots at. Or that the M240 does not have swings, tilts and shifts.

 

I think pictures tell more than 1000 words. For example check here:

https://www.flickr.com/groups/bigstopper/

 

Images with a 10 stop filter have a special feeling in them. 3 stop filter is not quite enough to achieve that smoothness for seascapes and clouds. Everyone has their opinion, but personally I love a well executed 10 stop shot. They can be very creative. And I don't know what you mean by diffraction here. I never use f/16 unless I absolutely have to. For example the peak sharpness for SEM 21 is about f/5.6. f/8 is just as good. By f/16 the diffraction kicks in so I will never use such small apertures. I prefer to use f/5.6-f/8 or sometimes f/11. If DoF is not enough, focus stacking works well. So I don't need a tilts and shift lens. But that would be seriously cool for Leica to come up with a T/S-lens. That thing probably cost well over 10 k€

 

sillbeers15: Beautiful shot indeed. Perfect exposure!

Edited January 20, 2015 by Tmuussoni

[fore]

Sadly it doesn't work like that for the M (240). No matter what you do, 60 sec is the max. exposure for the M 240. Or else I have missed something and this would be the most embarrassing thread ever :p

 

Really?? How can the manual be wrong? So strange, an a real bummer imo too.

 

 

 

I think pictures tell more than 1000 words. For example check here:

https://www.flickr.com/groups/bigstopper/

 

Images with a 10 stop filter have a special feeling in them. 3 stop filter is not quite enough to achieve that smoothness for seascapes and clouds. Everyone has their opinion, but personally I love a well executed 10 stop shot. They can be very creative. And I don't know what you mean by diffraction here. I never use f/16 unless I absolutely have to. For example the peak sharpness for SEM 21 is about f/5.6. f/8 is just as good. By f/16 the diffraction kicks in so I will never use such small apertures. I prefer to use f/5.6-f/8 or sometimes f/11. If DoF is not enough, focus stacking works well. So I don't need a tilts and shift lens. But that would be seriously cool for Leica to come up with a T/S-lens. That thing probably cost well over 10 k€

 

sillbeers15: Beautiful shot indeed. Perfect exposure!

 

Exactly! Totally agree, and had no idea flicker had a dedicated page to these NDs. Thanks!

[wparsonsgisnet]

Well ... the manual may not be "wrong." The camera firmware may be wrong. According to the description in the manual, there is a bug in the firmware.

 

Leica just has to fix it.

[jaapv]

Really?? How can the manual be wrong?

Hah!!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[algrove]

OP

 

I use my M240's for landscape and street. Even though I am aware of the 1 minute max time in B, I must say I have never encountered a problem. Perhaps I shoot at too low an aperture, but that's just me.

 

Louis Foubare: Making Every Minute Count