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Leica M EV1: Die erste M mit EVF statt Messssucher ×
Leica M EV1: The first M with EVF instead of Rangefinder ×

A very hypothetical "what if?"

Me Leica!

By Me Leica!
in Leica M (Type 240 / 262)

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jaques

jaques

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despite all the endless naysayers on this subject, and despite the fact that some 9 years or so since the M8 came out no one else has made a digital RF (other than the pre-existing epson)- I still believe that we will see an M mount compatible true optical rangefinder digital camera from another manufacturer some day soon.

 

I don't feel the need to engage in all the common sense arguments against it. :eek:

 

a few of the reasons I believe it will happen are as follows:

 

1) A lot of people want it. Sure not as many as for mainstream camera products- but globally it is A LOT OF PEOPLE even if it is a tiny niche within the broader market. I can't remember how many times fellow photographers have admired my Leica- obviously familiar with the product- but mentioned that they simply could not afford/justify the expense v the functionality. I can't blame them: I can't really justify it either...

 

Such prudent folks would be tempted by an affordable option.

 

2) Leica M mount lenses are used on many non-rangefinder cameras today. In Japan the camera manufacturers understand this trend well and have been catering DIRECTLY to M mount Leica Lens user for several years now. See the X-pro, XT-1, Sony A7, Ricoh GXR cameras all with their dedicated M mount adapters. There are also non-Leica manufacturers of M mount lenses and they seem to be doing well from it. However everyone agrees that these lenses are not ideal for other platforms as they are coupled rangefinder optics. Using them an another type camera is always a kind of kludge.

 

Many folks who own Leica lenses but no rangefinder body could be easily attracted to an affordable option.

 

3) The Japanese manufactures have also been having great success with 'Retro' type camera designs over the last 5 years. Some of these designs have tried to mimic the rangefinder experience. See the Fuji X-100 and X-Pro series. This trend continues: Fuji most recently has a new viewfinder that has an electronic 'rangefinder simulator' in the Xt-1. We can be sure more and better to come in that direction.

 

Users of these cameras would no doubt have a good look at an affordable rangefinder...

 

4) I believe it could be a marketing coup for whoever pulls it off: imagine a full frame M mount digital body- with or without a high quality state of the art add on EVF - available at half the price of the Leica offering (or less). If the camera outperformed the Leica (or was even just equal): it would cause quite a stir on the photoblog-interwebs... Quite a stir indeed.

 

Many Leica reviewers would have to snap one of the new cameras up for a quick review...

 

5) I absolutely don't believe the argument that it is too expensive to make optical RF digital cameras and that somehow only Leica can do it profitably. To me this seems absurd: DSLR's are far more complex. Manufacturers used to churn out optical RF film cameras in their millions from Japan. Cosina still make good optical RF mechanisms affordably. I don't think the peculiar sensor requirements of a digital M are that arcane today that no one but Leica can tackle them...

 

I predict all those folks who say that it is too hard, too expensive, that there is no market; and that it will never happen: will be amongst the first to run out an buy one the moment it does...

 

6) I want it to happen- Competition is GOOD. Therefore it will happen. Positive reinforcement.

 

And of course if they do it I will have to get one too :rolleyes:

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jaques

jaques

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Keep refreshing this page:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/search?utf8=✓&term=rangefinder

 

... and let us know ;)

 

 

oh- ye of little faith, ye of the old 'flat earth society', ye ironic Luddite yoked to Leica's antiquated and expensive monopolistic ways... what hope for ye?

 

I predictee that ye will be first to place thine order.

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Alberti

Alberti

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--

Leica is in an awkward position. They had to flee in to the luxury segment to survive. But there is always the danger that some day someone will decided to make a better clone at a significantly lower price and steal some of their customers. But I have a feeling that there will always be enough people around who will demand the genuine article regardless of the price. The brand will always be a status symbol that some people are willing to pay for.

 

Leica makes it very attractive for a competitor to enter: the price spot of the RD1 is left open.

  1. A competitor must offer something in exchange for the quality (and brand) of the M-series.
  2. The trade-off must not be a less precise in focussing/ use of the RF (the reason why a low-end analogue Minolta failed).
  3. A trade-off is not to be expected in sensors and processing hard/software. Apart from CCD others and specifically Fuji are doing fine.
  4. A trade-off is not expected in the build quality - other small bodies are also light-weight magnesium alloys. Of course some differences apart from register, can be expected
  5. A loss would be the use of the 6 bit code, so they must be smart to overcome the patented backgrounds of that information for processing purposes and for storing in EXIF.
  6. - - a low price does attract volume. This makes the opportunity real now.

Doable, but needs quite some stamina.

 

And yes, I like my wife's little Fuji. :rolleyes:

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colonel

colonel

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I predict that no competitor will ever offer a mechanical rangefinder with a digital system and unlikely for film.

And if they did (which no one will) I would never buy it. Given the inherent sensitivities and complications of the device and that Leica have had 50 years to iron out the issues I would only buy Leica.

As to the discussions on other brands with their own technology, that's all very nice but Leicas appeal on build and RF is unique. I might have it and other cameras but I wouldn't have another camera as a substitute.

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pop

pop

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Weird... I c&p'd the link from my iPad. Result is the same here.

 

None of my browsers in my Android tablets can use that link when used from within Tapatalk; it works, however, with both browsers on my iMac.

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jaapv

jaapv

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You guys are all widely behind times. Decades ago you had (and I missed quite a few):

Kodak,Contax,Nikon,Zeiss,Canon,Ricoh,Voigtlander,Kiev,Fed,Zorki,Mir,Chinon,Minolta,Konica,Argus,Great Wall,Robot,Argus, etc....rangefinders - all of which are gone, except Leica. What makes you think somebody else could do better?

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thrid

thrid

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I predict that no competitor will ever offer a mechanical rangefinder with a digital system and unlikely for film.

And if they did (which no one will) I would never buy it. Given the inherent sensitivities and complications of the device and that Leica have had 50 years to iron out the issues I would only buy Leica.

As to the discussions on other brands with their own technology, that's all very nice but Leicas appeal on build and RF is unique. I might have it and other cameras but I wouldn't have another camera as a substitute.

 

Well, in engineering terms there is nothing in the M camera that is so complex or sophisticated that Leica is the only company in the world who could build it. The RF unit is a brilliant piece of mechanical engineering, but to say that no one else could build something comparable is something of a reach. If anything I'm pretty sure that Sony could build an M body that was a lot thinner than what Leica has managed.

 

From an electronics standpoint Leica is hardly on the bleeding edge. Same for software.

 

What Leica does do better than anyone else is incorporate that undefinable something in to their industrial design that makes a product just feel right. And that is something that most other camera manufacturers don't seem to be able to pull off.

 

Let's take Nikon as an example since they are 'the other' company with a long heritage of making RF cameras. (I'm excluding Zeiss since they are no longer in the camera business). They essentially have all of the elements needed to repeat what they did in the 1950's and 60's.

 

Nikon has the money.

Nikon / Sony have the best sensors on the market.

Nikon has the software and hardware teams to build the guts.

Nikon has the manufacturing resources to train a team to assemble these cameras. (They did this for the SP reissue)

The main components they are missing is a mechanical RF unit and a body. And without a doubt they would draw on their own RF heritage. Nikon already built a parallax compensating RF unit for the Nikon SP and long before that they built RF units for naval canons that could hit a target tens of miles away.

 

What they don't seem to have is the interest.

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fursan

fursan

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Let's not get too carried away here...

The M system has its advantages when used within its limitations. Just as any other system on the market. And its disadvantages, too.

 

Leica M system might be less bulky than most dslrs but less weight ?? depends on which lenses one uses..but certainly not across the range of available M lenses.

 

This is a similar issue I have with the Sonys, Fujis etc...step outside a narrow range of lenses and the system looses its ' size and weight ' advantage...fast.

 

 

......

We are past the first flush of youth, have a bit of money in our pockets and value no compromise image quality combined with low bulk and weight - step forward the Leica M.

Ultimately a photograph requires only a lens and a sensor system. Leica currently have with their M system outstanding examples of both these requirements.

 

....

 

....

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barjohn

barjohn

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I will be surprised if Leica survives for another 5 years. They will not survive on RF cameras. With expanded manufacturing facilities and consumer stores comes increased overhead and the need to sell in greater volume. Clearly, the focus is on the luxury goods market and not the photography market. This is evidenced by the pricing strategy and the nature of the retail outlets. However, the company's that have been successful at this (Luis Vuitton, Hermes, etc.) are known for producing very high quality goods with exemplary quality control using the very best materials. Leica has used the lowest quality electronics they could buy whether it be LCDs, EVFs, processors, buffer memory, etc. with only an exterior appearance of quality and the countless threads on this forum discussing the deficiencies attests to this fact. For those that just want to carry a camera for prestige, it won't matter but to those that want equipment that works reliably it will.

 

Even where we would expect Leica to be able to perform, it hasn't. For example, look at the Leica T and its lenses. Many months after the camera was announced, Leica couldn't produce it or its lenses (even using a third party manufacturer) in quantity to support its stores or distributors. The two new lenses still are not available many months after announcement. How does a retail store stay in business with no inventory to sell? How does a retailer survive if they have no product to sell during the Christmas season (a period when most retailers make the sales they need to carry them through the year)? The limited inventory that is available is only available because it is obsolete and not selling.

 

I live in southern California, which is one of the more affluent areas in the country. A walk into our major shopping centers (South Coast Plaza and Fashion Island) is to see every major luxury good vendor you can name along with every high end retailer. A stroll in the local camera stores that sell Leica is to see mostly empty shelves in the Leica section where the Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon shelves are bursting with product. Standing around and listening to the sales people and what they are recommending to customers and it is almost never Leica. The lens inventory is small, the body inventory even smaller and the interest in selling them smaller yet. While I don't have access to Leica's financial data, I would bet that the Leica store in Beverly Hills is losing money. It is in very high retail space location and there Internet presence has been pretty low and their inventory has also been low. You need to turn a lot of inventory to pay for space and labor.

 

Time will tell...

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jaques

jaques

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I believe there would be demand for more than just 1000 of these cameras. If Leica can sell 30,000 M9's in a year- or whatever the number is- then there is probably demand for another 30,000 cameras from another maker at half the price with better specs. I would speculate that at least 25% of the regular contributors on this forum would buy one just because they couldn't resist.

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jaapv

jaapv

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I will be surprised if Leica survives for another 5 years. They will not survive on RF cameras. With expanded manufacturing facilities and consumer stores comes increased overhead and the need to sell in greater volume. Clearly, the focus is on the luxury goods market and not the photography market. This is evidenced by the pricing strategy and the nature of the retail outlets. However, the company's that have been successful at this (Luis Vuitton, Hermes, etc.) are known for producing very high quality goods with exemplary quality control using the very best materials. Leica has used the lowest quality electronics they could buy whether it be LCDs, EVFs, processors, buffer memory, etc. with only an exterior appearance of quality and the countless threads on this forum discussing the deficiencies attests to this fact. For those that just want to carry a camera for prestige, it won't matter but to those that want equipment that works reliably it will.

 

Even where we would expect Leica to be able to perform, it hasn't. For example, look at the Leica T and its lenses. Many months after the camera was announced, Leica couldn't produce it or its lenses (even using a third party manufacturer) in quantity to support its stores or distributors. The two new lenses still are not available many months after announcement. How does a retail store stay in business with no inventory to sell? How does a retailer survive if they have no product to sell during the Christmas season (a period when most retailers make the sales they need to carry them through the year)? The limited inventory that is available is only available because it is obsolete and not selling.

 

I live in southern California, which is one of the more affluent areas in the country. A walk into our major shopping centers (South Coast Plaza and Fashion Island) is to see every major luxury good vendor you can name along with every high end retailer. A stroll in the local camera stores that sell Leica is to see mostly empty shelves in the Leica section where the Sony, Fuji, Canon, Nikon shelves are bursting with product. Standing around and listening to the sales people and what they are recommending to customers and it is almost never Leica. The lens inventory is small, the body inventory even smaller and the interest in selling them smaller yet. While I don't have access to Leica's financial data, I would bet that the Leica store in Beverly Hills is losing money. It is in very high retail space location and there Internet presence has been pretty low and their inventory has also been low. You need to turn a lot of inventory to pay for space and labor.

 

Time will tell...

Well, fortunately Leica M is not the only model they are building, it may have escaped your notice we have S,M,X and T models nowadays... I hardly think that Beverly Hills is quite representative of retail sales.
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