jaapv Posted January 11, 2015 Share #121 Posted January 11, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) It is the soul that counts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 11, 2015 Posted January 11, 2015 Hi jaapv, Take a look here New Monochrom ?? [merged]. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted January 11, 2015 Share #122 Posted January 11, 2015 So it's existential cognac? Je Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2015 Share #123 Posted January 11, 2015 Ask Leica - they came up with it. To me it is brown Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomv Posted January 11, 2015 Share #124 Posted January 11, 2015 Now that's a true sign of brotherly love (not sarcastic).:)cheers Dave S And truly appreciated! It is a lovely camera next to my M9-P (previously owned by Erwin Puts) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted January 12, 2015 Share #125 Posted January 12, 2015 If my (chrome) M9 goes back to Wetzlar for a new sensor, it's getting Napa Green leather ... Monochrom will keep its fine embossed leather. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted January 12, 2015 Share #126 Posted January 12, 2015 there is a good chance that fuji x100 series will come up with a 28mm b&w only camera. unlike leica they listen to photographers demands. the major problem with MM is the blown highlights. the other problem that never got fixed is the shutter dial has no brakes, it keeps on revolving after it hits B. This is a problem that can easily be corrected. Why they chose to this with the digital Ms in the first place I will never understand. It started with the M8. Leica needs to observe Fuji in order to understand the leica philosophy and leica technique of shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
skuromis Posted January 12, 2015 Share #127 Posted January 12, 2015 Advertisement (gone after registration) unlike leica they listen to photographers demands. You are not trying to provoke anything, no? Leica needs to observe Fuji in order to understand the leica philosophy and leica technique of shooting. You hit the nail! Especially when I see the Fuji camera menu, I personally feel so much understood. Easy, quick, ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 12, 2015 Share #128 Posted January 12, 2015 there is a good chance that fuji x100 series will come up with a 28mm b&w only camera.unlike leica they listen to photographers demands. the major problem with MM is the blown highlights. the other problem that never got fixed is the shutter dial has no brakes, it keeps on revolving after it hits B. This is a problem that can easily be corrected. Why they chose to this with the digital Ms in the first place I will never understand. It started with the M8. Leica needs to observe Fuji in order to understand the leica philosophy and leica technique of shooting. :D Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 12, 2015 Share #129 Posted January 12, 2015 there is a good chance that fuji x100 series will come up with a 28mm b&w only camera. Anything is possible but I don’t think it is likely. the major problem with MM is the blown highlights. There is no problem with blown highlights at all. Blown highlights indicate overexposure, that’s all. the other problem that never got fixed is the shutter dial has no brakes, it keeps on revolving after it hits B. Some people like it that way. It reduces the time to get from one setting to another, on average. There is nothing to ‘fix’. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted January 12, 2015 Share #130 Posted January 12, 2015 Anything is possible but I don’t think it is likely. There is no problem with blown highlights at all. Blown highlights indicate overexposure, that’s all. Some people like it that way. It reduces the time to get from one setting to another, on average. There is nothing to ‘fix’. Blown highlights do not indicate anything. It is what they are they are "blown highlights". With M9 or or M you can shoot against the light and with the correct exposure you can pull off some detail from the lightest parts. With MM this is almost impossible . I never thought of the full revolving shutter as a technical incompetence. It was simply a bad decision. Most leica users myself included like working fast, and working fast means being able to hit certain numbers on your dials with small finger movements. with aperture and focus this easy because they have brakes at each end. This is still the case with shutter dials on M film cameras. With one move you hit the highest shutter number you know where you are without lowering the camera to check it. Why give up on this practical solution.You mention some prefer the new mechanism would you or anyone else care to explain why they prefer it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 12, 2015 Share #131 Posted January 12, 2015 With M9 or or M you can shoot against the light and with the correct exposure you can pull off some detail from the lightest parts. With MM this is almost impossible A camera with an RGB sensor gives you three colour channels and out of these, only one or two may be blown. In that case the raw converter can try to reconstruct the missing info in the overexposed channel. Naturally a monochrome sensor doesn’t support this so you have to be more careful in avoiding overexposure. Thankfully the M Monochrom features a raw-based histogram that helps with getting the exposure right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
patrick parker Posted January 13, 2015 Share #132 Posted January 13, 2015 I was under the impression that the next MM with a cmos would have solved this problem but according to what you are saying blown highlights will always be a problem. Am I correct ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 13, 2015 Share #133 Posted January 13, 2015 Yes - you are. It is simply a case of not having"backup" unblown colour channels. That means that the photographer must posess the exposure technique to decide which highlights are unimportant - and unobtrusive enough to leave without detail. This is the reason that the Monochrom has a Zone-System-like grid on the raw histogram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted January 13, 2015 Share #134 Posted January 13, 2015 I was under the impression that the next MM with a cmos would have solved this problem but according to what you are saying blown highlights will always be a problem. Am I correct ? Yep, just as Jaap has explained. The ability to reconstruct a blown colour channel is a mixed blessing anyway. Available light shots taken under tungsten lighting are a case in point: Since tungsten lighting contains mostly red and very little blue light, the blue channel is generally underexposed and even the green channel will often still be fine when the red channel is severely overexposed. This gives you a lot of latitude to recover blown highlights, letting the raw converter guess the missing red data from the green and blue channels. (Of course once the green channel is blown as well all bets are off and the reconstructed colour will look somewhat oddish.) But that is not the whole story. To achieve neutral colour the blue channel needs to be amplified in white balancing, and as blue is underexposed this introduces a lot of (both chroma and luminance) noise contaminating the shadows. So while the blue channel may appear to save the highlights, at the same time it ruins the shadows. A monochrome sensor deals with a mixture of all colours rather than with red, blue, and green individually. If you carefully expose a monochrome shot so that no highlights are blown, a similar exposure with a colour-capable sensor will probably feature an overexposed red channel. You already have to rely on highlight recovery whereas with the monochrome sensor there are no blown highlights in the first place. And in the shadows the monochrome sensor again deals with a mixture of all the wavelengths; there is no need to amplify some channel and thus there is no added shadow noise. Everything considered one could say you were better off with the M Monochrom than with, say, the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkP Posted January 13, 2015 Share #135 Posted January 13, 2015 Exactly why the histogram is of great assistance in more challenging lighting situations and why I wouldn't want a digital camera without a screen. I see the ability to use the histogram to optimise exposure in the field as one of the great advances in modern photography. I don't use it that often but it's invaluable in certain circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 13, 2015 Share #136 Posted January 13, 2015 Interesting Michael, I never looked at it that way. This appears to be the RGB problem of conflating colour with luminosity. I think it is a strong argument to use Dan Margulis' Professional Colour Workflow theory and actions. As he separates colour from luminosity there is the option of blending colour channels , even do so locally and thus restore the highlights without destroying the shadows. Yep, just as Jaap has explained. The ability to reconstruct a blown colour channel is a mixed blessing anyway. Available light shots taken under tungsten lighting are a case in point: Since tungsten lighting contains mostly red and very little blue light, the blue channel is generally underexposed and even the green channel will often still be fine when the red channel is severely overexposed. This gives you a lot of latitude to recover blown highlights, letting the raw converter guess the missing red data from the green and blue channels. (Of course once the green channel is blown as well all bets are off and the reconstructed colour will look somewhat oddish.) But that is not the whole story. To achieve neutral colour the blue channel needs to be amplified in white balancing, and as blue is underexposed this introduces a lot of (both chroma and luminance) noise contaminating the shadows. So while the blue channel may appear to save the highlights, at the same time it ruins the shadows. A monochrome sensor deals with a mixture of all colours rather than with red, blue, and green individually. If you carefully expose a monochrome shot so that no highlights are blown, a similar exposure with a colour-capable sensor will probably feature an overexposed red channel. You already have to rely on highlight recovery whereas with the monochrome sensor there are no blown highlights in the first place. And in the shadows the monochrome sensor again deals with a mixture of all the wavelengths; there is no need to amplify some channel and thus there is no added shadow noise. Everything considered one could say you were better off with the M Monochrom than with, say, the M9. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerndReini Posted January 13, 2015 Share #137 Posted January 13, 2015 And in the shadows the monochrome sensor again deals with a mixture of all the wavelengths; there is no need to amplify some channel and thus there is no added shadow noise. This is also the reason why you get much cleaner files when shooting the Monochrom with a color filter compared to shooting a color camera and adjusting the color channels during black and white conversion, which so many hail as the great advantage of shooting black and white with a color camera. When you push color channels around in post, you are amplifying noise and creating grain and artifacts. When you use a color filter with the Monochrom, and filter out the light of a certain wavelength during exposure, you compensate by adding extra exposure during the time of capture, and you are left with a much cleaner file. The Monochrom makes you think about your shot during capture and rewards you with wonderful quality if you get it right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
2wk Posted January 13, 2015 Share #138 Posted January 13, 2015 I was under the impression that the next MM with a cmos would have solved this problem but according to what you are saying blown highlights will always be a problem. Am I correct ? Blow highlights is not the problem. the Problem is you are not using the camera correctly. Expose for the highlights you want, simple as that...much like slide film. I do agree with you about the shutter speed dial though. I wish I there more like my M6 TTL, with brakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Printmaker Posted January 14, 2015 Share #139 Posted January 14, 2015 I'm not sure if this is old news (I don't have the time or patience to read past the last few pages of this thread) but Leica has a $750 rebate/discount on the MM. That signals that the new Monochrom is on its way. I wonder if they kept the video function... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfarkas Posted January 15, 2015 Share #140 Posted January 15, 2015 I'm not sure if this is old news (I don't have the time or patience to read past the last few pages of this thread) but Leica has a $750 rebate/discount on the MM. That signals that the new Monochrom is on its way. I wonder if they kept the video function... I posted a reply over on the Instant Savings for Monochrom thread addressing this: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m9-forum/360188-leica-announces-instant-ssavings-m-monochrom.html#post2866331 I think it is more a response to the weak Euro than a sign that a new Monochrom is imminent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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