algrove Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share #41 Posted September 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Many questions to answer. The "old" files do exist since when importing a specific folder they came into LR with that folder even though they were taken perhaps one year earlier and in a different place, i.e., Florida Keys images were included in NavajoNation images recently taken. Also verticals show up as horizontals on the old images. I have many camera systems and do not see why SD formatter necessary with Leica when not necessary with Phase One P45+, Sony RX1, Leica C or Canon 5D3 files. On M240 once the red light will not go out for 60 seconds I would remove battery. On M-P once I get a blank screen with no red light blinking (to me indicating it is writing data to SD card) for 60 seconds I switch it off and on again. At a sunrise or sunset that one minute has a high chance of missing that particular sunrise/sunset moment. After hundreds of sunrises and sunsets I know when I need to be capturing the moment and this is VERY disturbing! I also used this method with M9 and currently with MM, of course, except for the fact that they cannot and do not use LV and EVF. So to me the difference in behavior is due to the existence of LV and EVF on the M240 and M-P. I shoot only DNG uncompressed and always have the LV and EVF active and on. Also use "permanent on" so camera is ALWAYS active and does not sleep. I start each and every sunrise with a fresh and newly recharged battery and have 3 in reserve along with me. Same with sunsets. I cycle between 6 M240 batteries. Maybe one has issues as Jono suggested to me many months ago. I sent one back already for replacement after using it for about 2 months. So chances are slim it's battery issues. Why would not "overwrite" solve the problem? I must check again, but after the "old" images it seems the time stamp on subsequent new images are off from the ones before meeting up with the "old" image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 28, 2014 Posted September 28, 2014 Hi algrove, Take a look here My Lockups have stopped. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
thighslapper Posted September 28, 2014 Share #42 Posted September 28, 2014 Well they are not getting the true number of actuations from the ImageUniqueId because it's time based and I get duplicates with only one camera. I suspect they can extract diagnostic info via the USB interface though. How did you conclude it was time based....... When I looked at this 18 months ago it appeared that the numbering was seeded at a certain point each time when the camera was switched on and then incremented in a non-linear fashion until switched off again. The starting number showed no signs of how it was generated and the increments did not appear the equate even roughly to the time elapsed between exposures ..... .... not criticising .... just interested in how you came to that conclusion..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted September 28, 2014 Share #43 Posted September 28, 2014 The formatter in your camera is sufficient - FAT is fairly trivial, there is no magic to it. You use the same SD Card though all of this time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted September 28, 2014 Share #44 Posted September 28, 2014 Thanks. So Lou (algrove) should be fine switching off the camera and not removing the battery. That is unless the camera hanging contributes to his problems or another FW bug, no? I've never cared about the way i switch my cameras off to be honest but i would never use the same card in different cameras without formatting it with SD Formatter to begin with, then again in the camera. I have no scientific background to prove it but i've tested a good dozen of cards in the M240 and as far as startup times are concerned at least, my empirical findings tend to show that in-camera formatting is not the universal panacea by far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share #45 Posted September 28, 2014 The formatter in your camera is sufficient - FAT is fairly trivial, there is no magic to it. You use the same SD Card though all of this time? No, I rotate between 14 different 64GB Extreme Pro Sandisk 95mb/s cards. Once I leave an area with 50% or more full I consider it my first backup and also back up that same data to 2 different Sandisk 128GB Extreme Pro silver sticks for 3 back ups while on the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted September 28, 2014 Share #46 Posted September 28, 2014 Sorry, there are so many posts on this topic its hard to keep track. A summary might the that you have had one or more instances of a corrupt SD card (old photos reappeared in one instance) and a camera that sometimes freezes while writing to a SD Card (red light stays on, or similar). The funny thing is that because you have so many cards and batteries, the probably is higher that you have one or more defective units. I would number each card and battery and then take a note of each when you get the freeze. At the very least you would get an idea if you have a few bad cards/batteries or perhaps one bad camera. In the mean time, wipe the cards if you want to, write 1's then 0's then 1's again, use SD Formatter also if you want. Just keep in mind that wiping cards will reduce their working life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share #47 Posted September 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just keep in mind that wiping cards will reduce their working life. This is news to me, but then again I am no expert on this topic. To be clear, you mean wiping with "overwrite" ? My post #41 above basically explains how I use the M240 except for how I shoot many images for panorama shots and often manually bracket in most instances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted September 28, 2014 Share #48 Posted September 28, 2014 Yes, writing 0's to the SD Card would be sufficient. On Mac OS you would use disk utility, secure erase, second option on the slider ("write 0's"). Doubt it will help, but if I had the same problem I would give it try just to see ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 28, 2014 Share #49 Posted September 28, 2014 Also just got back from 3 weeks of shooting in Idaho and Montana. 3,000 shots and no lock ups. (M240) Format in camera only. Erase in camera. DNG compressed I shoot cards that date back to my M8 all the way up to new, fast and large MB cards. I trade between cameras. Only difference I see is the start up time. I never shoot and fill up the buffer. Hope this helps someone. Rick (And, please usual suspects, don't flame me as the fan-boy... I'm the one that lambasted Leica on the beta forum while shooting in Europe last year because of all of the continuous EVF + heat lock-ups I had. I understand more than most how frustrating it is to mis once in a lifetime shots!) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JonathanP Posted September 28, 2014 Share #50 Posted September 28, 2014 How did you conclude it was time based....... When I looked at this 18 months ago it appeared that the numbering was seeded at a certain point each time when the camera was switched on and then incremented in a non-linear fashion until switched off again. The starting number showed no signs of how it was generated and the increments did not appear the equate even roughly to the time elapsed between exposures ..... .... not criticising .... just interested in how you came to that conclusion..... I may be wrong, but with my camera the count appears to go up at around 1500/sec from power on. I say around because its not a hard count, but I analysed a number of images and it fitted that pattern. I suspect the counters incremented in a scheduling loop in the firmware, but either processor sleep or activity causes it not to be incremented at an exact rate (i.e. its not driven directly off a clock interrupt line). I think if they were going to seed the counter the problem could have been avoided if a large enough seed had been used - the field is big enough to make this easy. Just seeing the count with the switch on date and time would have been simple and fixed the problem for most cases. A more robust way would be to seed it with a hash of several factors; time, shutter count etc. I've used similar techniques on products I've developed to seed random number generators. Of course thats all speculation on my part and I'm sorry of my previous comment came over a bit abrupt as I was typing on my phone Jonathan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted September 28, 2014 Author Share #51 Posted September 28, 2014 Also just got back from 3 weeks of shooting in Idaho and Montana. 3,000 shots and no lock ups. (M240) Format in camera only. Erase in camera. DNG compressed I shoot cards that date back to my M8 all the way up to new, fast and large MB cards. I trade between cameras. Only difference I see is the start up time. I never shoot and fill up the buffer. Hope this helps someone. Rick (And, please usual suspects, don't flame me as the fan-boy... I'm the one that lambasted Leica on the beta forum while shooting in Europe last year because of all of the continuous EVF + heat lock-ups I had. I understand more than most how frustrating it is to mis once in a lifetime shots!) Rick-Asume you mostly shoot without EVF and LV. Correct? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 28, 2014 Share #52 Posted September 28, 2014 Rick-Asume you mostly shoot without EVF and LV. Correct? Depends, but yes I only shoot the EVF when shooting landscape and then only for very deliberate and/or tripod. I did shoot the EVF one day for long periods of time and the EVF + heat problem seems to be solved, but... it was only in the 80's... nothing like Europe last summer. Try the DNG compressed. I see no reason to make the camera work with extra large files. It already seems like the buffer or speed of the processor or the code speed may be the bottleneck... why make it worse. You really have nothing to lose... get it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rick Posted September 28, 2014 Share #53 Posted September 28, 2014 I understand that you had no lock-ups (from PM), only the odd problem with the images showing up, which you say may be locked images on the card. Anyway, I am glad you aren't experiencing lock-ups. Rick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulus Posted October 5, 2014 Share #54 Posted October 5, 2014 I have had two types of lock-ups last years with the M240. Freezing ( at minus 20 degrees Celsius ). Changed the battery and it was fine. And locking up after taking several shots of photos over a short period of time. But also holding the camera for a while and then taking a photo but noticing, that it locked up. Taking out the battery also stopped the problem. Maybe the fault isn't in the camera but in the combination battery/camera and build-up in static electricity. Removal of the camera battery grounds the system, so the static electricity can move away to the ground. It also explains the differences between people in lock-ups. Some people never get them, they could be "well grounded" themselves. Others get the all the times. I for instance build up static electricity very fast, due to circumstances like moist/dryness of air and isolation in clothing. Maybe it's a combination of this static and holding the camera. My camera is also Isolated with a every ready case. More isolation could build up more static. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tobey bilek Posted October 5, 2014 Share #55 Posted October 5, 2014 My M6 typically locks up after 38 exposures. Only solution is to open it up and pop in a fresh roll of film. I have the same issue, but after 40. I use Ilford in Leica Cassettes loaded with a bench winder in the dark.. The digital M8 and M9p work until the SD card fills or battery runs down. In all seriousness, format the card in the camera and do not erase images. Deleting leads to fragmented files and the card directory is not emptied. Then you get a message card is full even if is not a single image on it. I would also suggest dedicating cards to a specific camera. Reformat in computer if moving to a different camera. The reason a total wipe is harmful is the card software allocates storage on a rotating basis. A total wipe may even erase the allocation algorithm in which case the the same storage locations are always used unless the card is filled to capacity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted October 5, 2014 Share #56 Posted October 5, 2014 In all seriousness, format the card in the camera and do not erase images. Deleting leads to fragmented files and the card directory is not emptied. Then you get a message card is full even if is not a single image on it. Has that ever happened to you or do you just imagine it will happen? I suggest you go back and read what has been written regarding your claim. The reason a total wipe is harmful is the card software allocates storage on a rotating basis. A total wipe may even erase the allocation algorithm in which case the the same storage locations are always used unless the card is filled to capacity. Nonsense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share #57 Posted October 5, 2014 I have heard it all. So now what IS the proper way to clean up a card for future M240 use? Format, overwrite, delete all images and then format, etc? Thanks for any and all solid comment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted October 5, 2014 Share #58 Posted October 5, 2014 I keep it simple. When I get finished importing the photos to the computer I format the card in the camera using the camera menu. Period. One step. No problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timde Posted October 5, 2014 Share #59 Posted October 5, 2014 I have heard it all. So now what IS the proper way to clean up a card for future M240 use? Format, overwrite, delete all images and then format, etc? Thanks for any and all solid comment. In-camera format is sufficient and recommended. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
algrove Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share #60 Posted October 5, 2014 I keep it simple. When I get finished importing the photos to the computer I format the card in the camera using the camera menu. Period. One step. No problems. Yes, that's what I do, but some old images still persist on the SD card for whatever reason. I now wonder if these images were accidentally locked by me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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