CheshireCat Posted September 19, 2014 Share #41 Posted September 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) There appears to be no socket for an EVF. Then they should have removed the vestigial socket from the top. So cheap not to redesign the top plate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted September 19, 2014 Posted September 19, 2014 Hi CheshireCat, Take a look here M(240) Edition 60. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
colonel Posted September 19, 2014 Share #42 Posted September 19, 2014 There appears to be no socket for an EVF. less is more ..... out of sync with the vitriol here for special editions, rich Leica owners in particular, and what not I am happy for Leica to make them if they are profitable and they are kinda fun. That white panda M8 was a real laugh a minute It kind of appeals to me (although not in my income bracket) to have an outrageously coloured crocodile skin camera just to use occasionally for pure fun, pity the thought that fun is allowed, even in the 21st century. We don't have to be so serious all the time .... .... and perhaps the white gloves are not for what you think they are, but for a working ....... Leica has many markets However this M60 is just that, a special edition. Perhaps it will sell out fast, perhaps it won't. Taking out the LCD screen and EVF connection is ridiculous IMHO but nevertheless I am happy for people that want this, buy it and enjoy it. Life is full of choices .... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted September 19, 2014 Share #43 Posted September 19, 2014 The M60 strikes me as a huge lost opportunity. Leica had the chance to demonstrate that screens are superfluous even on digital cameras, but this camera is a joke. The M60 is a digital camera, not a film camera, and this has needs in terms of the interface. Here's a short list of things you can't adjust or access that are important to digital: Remaining battery / storage White balance! (has no one at Leica shot the m240 over ISO 1600?) Auto Power Off settings (hope you like the 2.5 second startup time) Color space (a concern for people who actually print) Metering modes (though I really do love the classic) Flash settings Formatting the SD card! (Every digital camera suggests you format regularly) DNG compression Settings for aperture-priority mode Which lens the camera thinks is attached (or manual lens selection). I also also add that Leica realizes how silly the M-P screw looks - so they took it off the M Edition 60 for a mere $5k extra. This camera is such a missed opportunity. Digital isn't film, don't pretend it is. You can have a WiFI connection between the camera and the phone or tablet, and adjust all those settings or getting information from the camera. The camera itself would be reduced to the essentials. Anyway, several of your items are not necessary (autowhite balance, 6-bit coding, etc.). The only real problem with the M60 is the control con exposure compensation in aperture priority mode: you need a wheel for that! . But Leica can exclude automatic shutter control... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 19, 2014 Share #44 Posted September 19, 2014 Then they should have removed the vestigial socket from the top. So cheap not to redesign the top plate. There are pictures in the internet showing the rear side of the camera, accessible to all. They do not show any vestigial sockets. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Pop Posted September 19, 2014 Share #45 Posted September 19, 2014 The idea expressed earlier that 'Leica spending time developing this for you is time they don't spend developing products I do like' is patently ridiculous. This idea that we like Leica cameras but the company is somehow obliged to make all of its prototype, special edition, design ideas with every specific need of ours in mind is likewise ridiculous. Granted, the white gloves in the video are a bit much, but they're showing off. Same as a luxury car company. I'd like to point out that no one freaks out when car companies make concept cars or have limited production of certain race cars. Some of the concepts contained in those cars are in the service of floating out an idea, or testing something. Or just having fun. Digital framelines are a good example from the last Audi Titanium M9 that now enjoy regular production. On the one hand, we have everyone bitching about Leica not listening to its customers ('why build a screenless 240 when I have been waiting for better battery life....THAT would be practical'), but then when they do listen to a group - the screenless digital camera, with a thumb advance like the Epson, has been advocated for or suggested in spades for a few years on every forum out there - we roast them over the fire and spend days complaining. This is a limited edition. Leica hasn't taken away your precious screens and histograms for good - you still have all the options on a regular 240, etc. It's not threatening the production, not funnelling all the resources away from doing things you in particular value. It's pointless and meaningless to debate round and round the merits of using a screen (some say it's mandatory for checking composition, others say that's too much chimping; some say you MUST have a histogram, others never use them; some say it's quicker, others say it slows them down.....etc. etc. etc. etc.). There's not even consensus on how to use a digital camera's existing features....and considerable groaning and celebrating about the existing 240 ('Bravo Leica!'....'Back to the drawing board'...'I'm keeping the M9'). Leica is exploring an idea. It's called reductionism; it's what's for breakfast. Deal with it and move on, or switch camera companies. The idea that one can take something that is an elegant design (the M, going back to the M3) and make it very clean and simple - no clutter, no distraction, the discipline (good or bad) of making digital just like film with its risks and surprises and rewards is a very cool statement. Maybe some stuff will make it into future mainstream offerings, maybe not. Doing this doesn't threaten the existing 240 - it's highly unlikely they are going to stop making all M cameras with a screen, so what is all the fuss about when they make a concept car of the svelte digital M with 'the essentials'. Remember....that's their motto. It's applying the T philosophy, in a way, to the 240. Don't buy it if you don't like it...at any price. Keep your screened 240...I have one too. I do all my processing and checking on a screen at home on my iMac; that's my preference, so I'm not whipped up about it. I use my camera screen 95% of the time to show someone a picture I took of them when they ask. Your mileage may differ. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hookeye Posted September 19, 2014 Share #46 Posted September 19, 2014 The only real problem with the M60 is the control con exposure compensation in aperture priority mode: you need a wheel for that! . But Leica can exclude automatic shutter control... Your point makes me wonder if one could use the ISO setting wheel for exposure compensation. That is what we would do with film Leicas, so why not for digital? The images RAW only and whatever pushing or pulling you need could be done in post processing anyway. Any views? Kind wishes, HP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dant Posted September 19, 2014 Share #47 Posted September 19, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I was all wrong about the M60. I was looking at it from my viewpoint as a photg that would use one. The M60 has no appeal to me on that account, at least not anywhere near the crazy price Leica wanted for it. Now I can see the M60 is for collectors and not to be used. As such the price can go as high as the market will pay. The astronomical price has nothing to do with function, it is based on form. A dirty bed can go for 3.8 million when collectors bid up the price. So why not crazy prices for collector cameras? Artist Tracey Emin's unmade bed sells for $3.8 million | MENAFN.COM Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted September 19, 2014 Share #48 Posted September 19, 2014 ...snip... I'd like to point out that no one freaks out when car companies make concept cars or have limited production of certain race cars. Some of the concepts contained in those cars are in the service of floating out an idea, or testing something. Or just having fun. Digital framelines are a good example from the last Audi Titanium M9 that now enjoy regular production. On the one hand, we have everyone bitching about Leica not listening to its customers ('why build a screenless 240 when I have been waiting for better battery life....THAT would be practical'), but then when they do listen to a group - the screenless digital camera, with a thumb advance like the Epson, has been advocated for or suggested in spades for a few years on every forum out there - we roast them over the fire and spend days complaining. ....snip.... Leica is exploring an idea. It's called reductionism; it's what's for breakfast. Deal with it and move on, or switch camera companies. The idea that one can take something that is an elegant design (the M, going back to the M3) and make it very clean and simple - no clutter, no distraction, the discipline (good or bad) of making digital just like film with its risks and surprises and rewards is a very cool statement. Maybe some stuff will make it into future mainstream offerings, maybe not. Doing this doesn't threaten the existing 240 - it's highly unlikely they are going to stop making all M cameras with a screen, so what is all the fuss about when they make a concept car of the svelte digital M with 'the essentials'. Remember....that's their motto. It's applying the T philosophy, in a way, to the 240. Don't buy it if you don't like it...at any price. Keep your screened 240...I have one too. I do all my processing and checking on a screen at home on my iMac; that's my preference, so I'm not whipped up about it. I use my camera screen 95% of the time to show someone a picture I took of them when they ask. Your mileage may differ. Nothing wrong with M60, if Leica ever produces normal edition M60 digital camera I hope they sell well but it will still be distraction from developments to come. Referring to David Farkas interview with Stefan Daniel published on RED DOT FORUM real technology platform is new S (typ 007). Advancements installed in latest S are to expected in the future M & other models, for instance new Maestro 2 processor allows 60 times/second refresh on rear LCD something that should have been fitted in current M model but isn't, also improved ISO performance on CMOS MF sensor produced by CIMOSIS. Personally I want be interested in minimalist camera like M60, better performance yes. Cosmetically, top script and lack of red dot or big screw appeal to me but keep user interface as you would expect to find on versatile digital camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted September 19, 2014 Share #49 Posted September 19, 2014 There are pictures in the internet showing the rear side of the camera, accessible to all. They do not show any vestigial sockets. Leica M Edition 60 // Leica M // Photography - Leica Camera AG The picture in "The essential four" chapter clearly shows the socket (with cover on). Whether it has functional contacts & firmware or it can just host an extra thumb grip, I don't know. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted September 19, 2014 Share #50 Posted September 19, 2014 Leica M Edition 60 // Leica M // Photography - Leica Camera AG The picture in "The essential four" chapter clearly shows the socket (with cover on). Whether it has functional contacts & firmware or it can just host an extra thumb grip, I don't know. There is no external EVF, from Red Dot Forum/David Farkas/Stefan Daniel encounter. See post #187 http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/345124-why-would-anyone-want-leica-no-10.html Even though there is no rear LCD, does a user have the option to use an EVF2? No, this would compromise the concept. If you would put the EVF on, users would then expect more menus and other complications. Also explanation of top M button. What is the M button on top used for? This is to tell basic info in the viewfinder. Press once for battery percentage remaining. Press once more for number of photos remaining on SD card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeturnum Posted September 19, 2014 Share #51 Posted September 19, 2014 You can have a WiFI connection between the camera and the phone or tablet, and adjust all those settings or getting information from the camera. The camera itself would be reduced to the essentials. Anyway, several of your items are not necessary (autowhite balance, 6-bit coding, etc.). The only real problem with the M60 is the control con exposure compensation in aperture priority mode: you need a wheel for that! . But Leica can exclude automatic shutter control... Sure, that would have been fine (I can't believe I forgot about exposure comp - hope it's turned on by default!). However, I don't think that's possible now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted September 19, 2014 Share #52 Posted September 19, 2014 Leica M Edition 60 // Leica M // Photography - Leica Camera AG The picture in "The essential four" chapter clearly shows the socket (with cover on). Whether it has functional contacts & firmware or it can just host an extra thumb grip, I don't know. That's the accessory socket where you mount the flash etc. Every M-Type camera I can recall has it. Even my M6 has it, and the EVF definitely will not fit the M6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted September 19, 2014 Share #53 Posted September 19, 2014 Also known as a hotshoe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share #54 Posted September 19, 2014 Exposure compensation is only relevant if you're shooting in Aperture priority mode. The only automatic adjustment is shutter in that setting. My workflow would be first to set the ISO for the conditions (what combination of aperture and shutter I will want), then set the aperture. If the meter is giving a false reading, then switch to manual and under or over expose the shutter or aperture setting as required. What do you need exposure compensation for? Adjusting the ISO setting will achieve nothing if you leave the camera in A. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmradman Posted September 19, 2014 Share #55 Posted September 19, 2014 We are getting close to an old debate about auto ISO. M60 with its limited adjustments appear to be created for those who were not applauding introduction of auto ISO on M typ 240. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted September 19, 2014 Author Share #56 Posted September 19, 2014 Is it an old debate? We discussed this in relation to the M9, as I recall. It's just another adjustment. I don't use auto ISO on my M9 as I don't want the camera adjusting both shutter speed and ISO - too many variables. Whereas, on the Monochrom, I do, but I don't use aperture priority with that camera. I've never really used EV adjustment as manual override is quicker and more accurate. The only exception is if I want the same adjustment for a series of pictures - eg in snow. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
satijntje Posted September 19, 2014 Share #57 Posted September 19, 2014 No need to worry if this camera is something for you or not. The M60 is nearly SOLD OUT! 600 combo's are already nearly all sold or reserved according to a Leica employee that I met today at the PK! Believe it or not, I was not surprised to hear that. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The hotshot is only for a flash, the EVF will not function! By pressing the "movie button" once, you first see a figure e.g. 25 indicating that 25% battery is still left. Pressing it once more it will give you the number of DNG's that can still be stored on the SD card. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The hotshot is only for a flash, the EVF will not function! By pressing the "movie button" once, you first see a figure e.g. 25 indicating that 25% battery is still left. Pressing it once more it will give you the number of DNG's that can still be stored on the SD card. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/234100-m240-edition-60/?do=findComment&comment=2673973'>More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted September 19, 2014 Share #58 Posted September 19, 2014 The M60 strikes me as a huge lost opportunity. Leica had the chance to demonstrate that screens are superfluous even on digital cameras, but this camera is a joke. The M60 is a digital camera, not a film camera, and this has needs in terms of the interface. Here's a short list of things you can't adjust or access that are important to digital: Remaining battery / storage White balance! (has no one at Leica shot the m240 over ISO 1600?) Auto Power Off settings (hope you like the 2.5 second startup time) Color space (a concern for people who actually print) Metering modes (though I really do love the classic) Flash settings Formatting the SD card! (Every digital camera suggests you format regularly) DNG compression Settings for aperture-priority mode Which lens the camera thinks is attached (or manual lens selection). I also also add that Leica realizes how silly the M-P screw looks - so they took it off the M Edition 60 for a mere $5k extra. This camera is such a missed opportunity. Digital isn't film, don't pretend it is. ..... rather confused about all this wittering about missing functions ........ I assume ...... and it would be rather pointless otherwise ..... that the 60 takes digital emulation of a film camera as far as it goes ...... ie. Total manual operation for exposure Start up should be quick as lots of stripped out functions ..... just the LED viewfinder indicators fixed auto off time ..... classic metering alone auto WB ...... or fixed daylight .... then get some filters like the old days ..... fixed compression .... why change anyway ...? low battery signalled in the VF like old cameras with electonic metering .... etc, etc etc. I CAN see this would have some novelty appeal for the nostalgic .... but I suspect it would be short lived and sanity would prevail eventually ...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CheshireCat Posted September 19, 2014 Share #59 Posted September 19, 2014 That's the accessory socket where you mount the flash etc. Every M-Type camera I can recall has it. Even my M6 has it, and the EVF definitely will not fit the M6. I doubt anyone will ever use a flash on the M 60... Actually, I doubt anyone will ever use an M 60 at all Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlatkob Posted September 19, 2014 Share #60 Posted September 19, 2014 600 combo's are already nearly all sold or reserved according to a Leica employee that I met today at the PK! Believe it or not, I was not surprised to hear that. I'm not surprised at all. It's a genuine collector's item and conversation piece. If I had the money to spare, I'd buy a few of these, not to use, but just to do the unboxing with white gloves on, like the guy in the video. Considering its rarity and sheer prettyiness, it's not priced that much higher than the standard edition and will likely keep or increase its value. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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