andybarton Posted August 28, 2014 Share #81 Posted August 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I wonder if Pete Myers knows that his email to Kenneth is being dissected on a photography forum... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted August 28, 2014 Posted August 28, 2014 Hi andybarton, Take a look here Thinking of buying a Monochrom M. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wattsy Posted August 28, 2014 Share #82 Posted August 28, 2014 On the "aliasing" issue, I don't Pete Myers is as wrong as being suggested here. It is true that the Monochrom is free of the colour moire that is a common feature of sensors without a low-pass filter (the M8 and M9 sensors are quite prone to this kind of moire when used with Leica lenses - especially when stopped down – and I also see it in Nikon D810 files). You only have to compare, for example, the way fine detail in fabrics is rendered in an M9 and M Monochrom DNG to see how advantageous the latter's sensor is (in this respect at least). However, the lack of bayer induced colour moire doesn't mean that the Monochrom sensor is totally free of moire and aliasing – there will always be various interference patterns when sharp very fine parallel lines cross each other (there's some good examples of the theory behind this phenomenon here) and you also get the phenomenon of stair-stepping if you examine the files closely enough. I can't recall it ever being a problem but, for the pixel peeping obsessive, it might be. You can see some minor aliasing effects in the hair in the crop below (full frame for reference). The same shot with the same lens and using the M9 would show far more aliasing, possibly with a dose of colour moire for good effect. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/232660-thinking-of-buying-a-monochrom-m/?do=findComment&comment=2658517'>More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 28, 2014 Share #83 Posted August 28, 2014 Note the date too, Ian. Leica was in the late stages of developing the M8, which was a desperate gamble, given the financial state of the company. Can anybody seriously suggest that they would even contemplate a niche-within a niche camera at that juncture? ... Uninformed nonsense, Jaap. You spout it with such authority. Prior to the launch of the M8 a well known member of these boards was asked by David Bell, MD Uk, to field test an M8 and to give his opinion of the suitability of a monochrome only version for wedding photographers. I have an email from that time. It's my personal speculation that they knew about the magenta cast and were looking at options to get the product to market. Gary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 28, 2014 Share #84 Posted August 28, 2014 Quite possible the idea was kicked around, after all the sensor was available and Kodak had produced a limited number of such cameras, but I can scarcely credit that a company in dire financial problems would contemplate releasing a camera for such a small market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolo Posted August 28, 2014 Share #85 Posted August 28, 2014 Quite possible the idea was kicked around, after all the sensor was available and Kodak had produced a limited number of such cameras, but I can scarcely credit that a company in dire financial problems would contemplate releasing a camera for such a small market. "Can anybody seriously suggest that they would even contemplate a niche-within a niche camera at that juncture?" Yes they did "even contemplate it". No wriggle room for you, again, and again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted August 28, 2014 Share #86 Posted August 28, 2014 Well, if they contemplated it, no problem with me. As I said, it is hardly a difficult one to come up with. I guess that in their position I would contemplate just about any proposition. As it is, they don't appear to have done It until much later when the risk was manageable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffreyg Posted August 28, 2014 Share #87 Posted August 28, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) You can see some minor aliasing effects in the hair in the crop below (full frame for reference). The same shot with the same lens and using the M9 would show far more aliasing, possibly with a dose of colour moire for good effect. Are you sure that's aliasing, or just OOF? What was the ISO and f-stop for this image? I've shot some incredible landscape work with the MM and never seen any issues of aliasing, not to say some might. For me, its MFDB in a small package. And that's a compliment. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wattsy Posted August 28, 2014 Share #88 Posted August 28, 2014 Are you sure that's aliasing, or just OOF? What was the ISO and f-stop for this image? I think it's some kind of aliasing but I might be using the wrong terminology. I can probably find a better example – it was a fairly random photo on my desktop – but I can see "aliasing" (of some kind) in the hair. It looks like little stripes that are not in the actual hair. There's also stair-stepping which is something you can often see on the edges of fine detail if you actually look for it. Neither is something that has either bothered me or caused a problem. Edit: On the other hand, thinking about it, I might just be looking too closely (literally) and seeing the limitations of my (non-retina) 24" monitor. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbbeyFoto Posted August 28, 2014 Share #89 Posted August 28, 2014 As always I am late to this debate. I was an early adopter of the MM. In the past my post processing was minimal. It is only recently that I have ventured deeper into Lightroom. It maybe the improvement in my understanding of LR and/or improvements in LR itself but I am increasingly pleased with recent work on processing MM files, which leads to my being increasingly happy with the MM. One area in which I use alternative kit, mainly Nikon, is landscape work in wet weather. As to cameras losing value I have taken a hit on a number both film and digital, Leica and Nikon. I know I will take a hit with the MM especially if/when an update is announced but I have no regrets. My photography has moved on with the MM and, to reiterate, that required me to develop my post processing skills. A process similar to the many hours I spent learning to do B&W prints many years ago. MM files force you to think monochrome and allow you to use a good deal of burning and dodging. I can note my favourite B&W film was Kodak Technical Pan 2415, not Tri-X. In comparing MM files to film I have to suggest thinking in terms of comparing them to technical films e.g. Adox CMS 20. All in all, the MM plus matching LR skills allows me to recreate my original excitement with photography in a digital world. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 28, 2014 Share #90 Posted August 28, 2014 Not sure about that. There is quite some quantum-leap technology in the pipeline that may make them obsolete in the mid- or long term. I often wonder about that. What, if any, leaps do you think will be made? . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenneth Posted August 28, 2014 Author Share #91 Posted August 28, 2014 I wonder if Pete Myers knows that his email to Kenneth is being dissected on a photography forum...I don't know Andy, why don't you tell him? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotografr Posted August 28, 2014 Share #92 Posted August 28, 2014 I cannot recall a single image on my Monochrom that had aliasing problems... And his beloved Kodak had no anti-alias filter either Nor can I. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
abphoto Posted August 28, 2014 Share #93 Posted August 28, 2014 To the OP, I have had my MM for almost 2 years now and I love it. I will shoot with it until it dies and Leica will no longer supports it. For me the 18MPs is plenty and the low light capabilities leave me not wanting anything more. It fits my vision and the way I work nicely so even if Leica introduces a new MM I have no desire to upgrade. And the way I look at it if I had of waited for something else to come along I wouldn't have had all the pleasure of shooting with it for the past two years. At some point the technology meets the need and this is a camera that full met my needs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john neal Posted August 29, 2014 Share #94 Posted August 29, 2014 What a range of opinion here! Earlier this year I was in a similar position as the OP. A long-term Nikon F2 user up to about 12 or 15 years ago, when I switched to Leica (size of camera and eyesight issues with SLR focus screens being the main reason). I invested in bodies and lenses and thoroughly enjoyed the experience, ending up with a MP that was my great joy for film, along with a late M3. A house move and lack of space for processing set me on the road to dive into digital and I tried Canon & Nikon (still have a 5D for when a SLR is essential) but sold just about all my other gear to fund a M9-P as I wanted to stick with Leica in the digital world - the delights of Sony and Fuji had convinced me that digital is a reasonable way to produce a photograph, but I missed the Leica experience. Having done so last March, I was starting to learn about RAW and processing with LR and enjoying the M9-P when I visited Robert Caplan in London and saw the MM output of a few of their customers. I have never had such a photographic experience in my life - the quality of the pictures just blew me away. These were from a wide range of users from top pro to absolute amateur and had not been "adjusted" by the shop at all. I knew at that moment that I had to have a Monochrom. The big problem was the price £6,000 from an authorised dealer, and me with nothing in the camera fund! With difficulty I dragged myself away and carried on around town, eventually landing at Classic Camera where some of my gear was still on comission sale. Well, they had a "demo" body that was a whole lot less than the RRP - combine that with a deal on my kit and I walked out with a new MM body. My wife was livid, particularly as I havd recently become self employed and we could have used the money for other things - but, as has been pointed out here earlier, money is just for spending, it has no other use. I don't smoke at all or drink much, and have few other vices, so I thought "why not?" - at the price I paid, I would get 99.9% of it back if I resold it after trying it out and deciding I didn't like it. Boy, do I like it! I have always had a penchant for B&W and have burned thousands of feet of Tri-X in the past (before it got real expensive) and now Double-X in the MP. I'm still learning the art of processing the files in LR, but encouraged by recent progress, so it's a keeper for sure. The point of this long & rambling post? The shutter has failed after only 3 months, bringing about the fears of the OP To be honest, I thought I would be hopping mad, but I am actually feeling quite phlegmatic about the whole thing. Yes, for an amateur like me, this is an expensive toy, and I'm miffed that a premium product has failed so quickly. On the other hand, the support from the Leica Store in Mayfair has been excellent - I have a free return service that will get the body to Wetzlar for repair and then back to me. OK, I have to live without it for up to 6 weeks, but that's the deal with the warranty. I can still use my other cameras and achieve reasonably good B&W conversions in the meantime. The shutter has failed in the same mode that is common on the M8 - it goes into a sort of "motor-drive" where the shutter is constantly trying to fire and reset. it even carries on when the power switch is off and the only answer is to remove the battery. The same shutter is used on all the digital M bodies and R8/9 but rarely fails on anything other than the M8. Apparently the higher tension required to achieve 1/8000 on the M8 is responsible for most of the failures. The moral of my story? If you can't afford it, don't buy it (which I think the OP has already decided). If you can afford it, definitely buy it, use it and enjoy it! Don't stress about the fact that it may go wrong - worrying about it won't prevent it happening. You might as well worry about being hit by a Jumbo Jet - the odds are probably about the same Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted August 29, 2014 Share #95 Posted August 29, 2014 The same shutter is used on all the digital M bodies and R8/9 but rarely fails on anything other than the M8. Apparently the higher tension required to achieve 1/8000 on the M8 is responsible for most of the failures. The R8/9 also have the same 1/8000th shutter speed as the original M8's. I have two m8's and an R8. All are now quite old and have never shown any propensity to fail because of the higher spring tension. This does not prove much, but neither does your assertion above. Basically the gear is good and you should be confident using it. If it does fail, remember there is nothing mechanical or electronic that will not fail some time. Enjoy it while it works. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
john neal Posted August 29, 2014 Share #96 Posted August 29, 2014 Erl, I agree with you the gear is generally good - just passing on what the service guy at the Leica Store told me. I had forgotten that the R8 had the 1/8000 top speed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Louis Marit Posted August 29, 2014 Share #97 Posted August 29, 2014 I also love my MM which rekindled my joy of photography. I got mine in October 2012, the first one the local dealer sold. It unfortunately spawned a Leica addiction and I ended up selling all my Nikon gear which I had stopped using because it was so annoyingly cumbersome and heavy ( try lugging a D3X around for a day in the heat not to mention it is hardly discreet. ) I now have an M and an MP ( replaced my FM2B) but of all of them the MM is always my first choice. Sadly it has had to go to New Jersey for a " holiday" however they have promised to get it back by end of October. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edward Louis Marit Posted August 29, 2014 Share #98 Posted August 29, 2014 Should add that even if they come up with a replacement as has been rumored I have zero interest in upgrading it. It is perfect as is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bybrett Posted September 3, 2014 Share #99 Posted September 3, 2014 Uninformed nonsense, Jaap. You spout it with such authority. Prior to the launch of the M8 a well known member of these boards was asked by David Bell, MD Uk, to field test an M8 and to give his opinion of the suitability of a monochrome only version for wedding photographers. Gary Correct Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjh Posted September 3, 2014 Share #100 Posted September 3, 2014 Leica was in the late stages of developing the M8, which was a desperate gamble, given the financial state of the company. Can anybody seriously suggest that they would even contemplate a niche-within a niche camera at that juncture? Contemplate they did, but they decided against that option. Which in retrospect was probably a wise decision, even when at the time I had wished they would build that camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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