Leica M8

[pgk]

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So, thanks to those who supported and helped me build on to my own thoughts and desires.

To the ones whom I 've been unfortunate enough to continue to talk with but have proven more than in one threads that they have deliberately tried to clash with me, no matter what my thoughts would be, I can't forbid you to write on, but if you have some dignity left please don't continue to follow my threads. Like any average human being I don't like to disagree, I prefer not to talk at all instead if I have to choose between the two. OK?

Your OP was decidedly 'loaded'. If you don't like the reaction I suggest that you don't make silly statements when looking for advice/opinions. I won't be bothering to follow your threads but not for the reasons you suggest.

[DigitalHeMan]

So, thanks to those who supported and helped me build on to my own thoughts and desires.

 

To the ones whom I 've been unfortunate enough to continue to talk with but have proven more than in one threads that they have deliberately tried to clash with me, no matter what my thoughts would be, I can't forbid you to write on, but if you have some dignity left please don't continue to follow my threads. Like any average human being I don't like to disagree, I prefer not to talk at all instead if I have to choose between the two. OK?

 

 

Are you this impolite in real life to those trying to help you as well?

[jip]

Yes I'm wondering the same... He rants on about his opinions but when I state out some facts he feels assaulted...

[crow]

It is a conscious choice not to attack someone. If I have a different opinion I will state this as polite as possible and I won't tell someone what to do, like some people did already, but I will carefully suggest things, so that I don't insult any person, however young they are, or even ignorant with respects to the field. Every one should be treated with respect. I won't be polite to the people who haven't been so.

Yes if you don't have the courtesy not to attack any one then please don't take part.

However this is not the case with all of the people who followed this thread.

I am being honest, I would prefer that they didn't. Sorry!

[jaapv]

Disagreeing with your ideas is not attacking, especially as they are rather unique.

I would suggest that if you are looking for agreement only that this would be a one-post thread.

[erl]

When 'masters'offer advice and guidance to 'apprentices' it is normal for the apprentice to heed that advice. Ignore at their peril in most cases. I know of only one case in history where the the apprentice surpassed the master, who killed him in a fit of jealousy. I have seen the apprentices work. It is truly remarkable. Mostly the master is right.

 

The OP should forget his pre-conceived ideas about painting and start his photography life based on the the generally good advice offered. Otherwise there is a very expensive and dismal future awaiting him.

 

No apologies for the bluntness. It appears to be advisable.

[fursan]

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So, thanks to those who supported and helped me build on to my own thoughts and desires.

To the ones whom I 've been unfortunate enough to continue to talk with but have proven more than in one threads that they have deliberately tried to clash with me, no matter what my thoughts would be, I can't forbid you to write on, but if you have some dignity left please don't continue to follow my threads. Like any average human being I don't like to disagree, I prefer not to talk at all instead if I have to choose between the two. OK?

 

What was the point of your original post?

 

Have you posted any images you made, photographic or painting , so that one could better understand where you are coming from?

 

In any case, go on doing what you were originally doing....eventually you might get somewhere.

 

Good luck.

[crow]

OK

the goal was to understand better what an M8 is, what it can do, and how i could use it.

I started getting messages saying I should quit D photography just because I am not willing to use Photoshop(!), and another saying that I should stick to painting only(!). Or shouldn't do D photography, just analog. Are these serious responses?

People should make suggestions, not bluntly and ruthlessly give orders.

People who make critical statements such as telling others what to do, should also be ready to take criticism theme selves.

Again, thanks to the people whose intentions were good and helpful!

Sorry i didn't like everything said, and that I tried to respond to negative criticism making negative statements. I am only trying to defend my right not to be fond of Photoshop.

 

It seems that some people abuse their authoritative power.

For me, dialogue is not about power, but it is about respect. If you read beneath the lines you will easily find out who had and who hadn't the same degree of respect for what anyone had to say. Sorry I am perpendicular as far as respect is concerned but I strongly believe that even negative statements should have respect deep with in them. Sorry but respect is something I won't give up. You can have different ideas, but don't express them like giving orders, be careful not to hurt people. You should be able to see the goal of helping someone behind every statement, even a negative one. Have a look at what some people including the last statements made, they disagreed or made suggestions, keeping it polite, not insulting or attacking. Many Thanks to the people who proved you can disagree or say something totally out of my line of thoughts, and at the same time respect me. I like different, even if I am black and the others' statement is white, but I don't like disrespect.

[luigi bertolotti]

You made an important point (quote from your 2nd post in the thread)

 

"We should be progressing. Camera. screen, printer, and paper should all work as one"

 

This is exactly the definition of the Digital Workflow... but is NOT easy to master ALL of it, INCLUDING the printing process; but expecially if you wish to dedicate to B&W (a task for which M8 is really still excellent as a choice) you can, as was for film, make a straight CUT before printing, for this basic reason(s)

 

- Obtain an excellent negative ---> you can surely get a very good print

- Obtain an excellent file ---> you can surely get a very good print

 

To make a step on : let's say, if you don't like Photoshop, that an excellent file means an excellent TIFF file : this means that you can rely just on a single piece of Software (Lightroom, for instance, and as you prefer, too, I seem to remember)

And this isn't much difficult to master, provided that you have a good MONITOR and you have profiled it : this is no more complex than making a choice on film developer (say... Rodinal) and mastering concentration levels, control of temperature, of time in the tank etc... and EVALUATING a negative is more difficult than evaluating a file, not to speak of the fact that a developed neg IS definitely developed... a DNG file can be re-developed in Lightroom ad infinitum...

 

So... don't worry of digital : one camera, one PC (one Monitor) , one Software : is a simple setup and a workflow in which the choices are many : indeed, (and this is a critical point) MORE than with chemicals... but with MORE control on the effect, and THIS, remember, can cause waste of time and/or anxiety... you are often tempted to "let's try again"... one can have the feel to have obtained "the perfect neg" (no way back to demonstrate isn't true) , but can never enjoy the feel to have obtained "the perfect file" (there's ALWAYS the way back and the chance to make it better) ... be conscious of this fact, and live with.

 

AFTER having became confident on the above workflow, you will be able, in case, to think of the enlarger.. err... printer... . Complex for b&w... even more than color... but as for analog you have :

- Hardware (printer / enlarger)

- Chemicals (developers / inks)

- Software (control of chemicals / controls of printer's functions)

- Kinds of paper to deal with depending also on previous choices.

[jaapv]

OK

the goal was to understand better what an M8 is, what it can do, and how i could use it.

I started getting messages saying I should quit D photography just because I am not willing to use Photoshop(!), and another saying that I should stick to painting only(!). Or shouldn't do D photography, just analog. Are these serious responses?

People should make suggestions, not bluntly and ruthlessly give orders.

People who make critical statements such as telling others what to do, should also be ready to take criticism theme selves.

Again, thanks to the people whose intentions were good and helpful!

Sorry i didn't like everything said, and that I tried to respond to negative criticism making negative statements. I am only trying to defend my right not to be fond of Photoshop.

 

It seems that some people abuse their authoritative power.

For me, dialogue is not about power, but it is about respect. If you read beneath the lines you will easily find out who had and who hadn't the same degree of respect for what anyone had to say. Sorry I am perpendicular as far as respect is concerned but I strongly believe that even negative statements should have respect deep with in them. Sorry but respect is something I won't give up. You can have different ideas, but don't express them like giving orders, be careful not to hurt people. You should be able to see the goal of helping someone behind every statement, even a negative one. Have a look at what some people including the last statements made, they disagreed or made suggestions, keeping it polite, not insulting or attacking. Many Thanks to the people who proved you can disagree or say something totally out of my line of thoughts, and at the same time respect me. I like different, even if I am black and the others' statement is white, but I don't like disrespect.

You should expect a reaction if you state that you are going to ride a bicycle without wheels.

 

 

People are trying to make clear to you, in quite a friendly way as far as I can see, that digital photography without postprocessing cannot exist. Whatever way you turn it, a file has to be processed to be converted from a series of zeroes and ones into something that can produce an image in print.

That is the reason programs like Photoshop, Lightroom, Aperture, Capture One, Gimp, etc exist. Even if you drop off your card at the local Supermarket to print your JPGs, the machine will apply similar editing algorithms in order to produce the print.

 

So a statement like "I will never use Photoshop" only proves that you are unaware of the way the technology works and have no idea of the process involved.

 

To set your mind at rest, I would never advise a beginner to start off using the full version of Photoshop. Lightroom, Aperture or Elements are a gentler way of entering the learning curve.

 

 

Reason to say - if you are unwilling to open your mind to a craft including the tools of the trade, it is better to stick to something you are willing to enter in.

 

And I still think your adversion to Photoshop is probably due to the versatility of the program. Besides being the most flexible photo editor, it is meant to support the full gamut of digital creativity, including some stuff that many find rather tasteless to put it mildly. Hardly the fault of the software.

[pop]

A couple of simple observations:

Crow did not say he opposed digital post-processing. He explicitly stated that he did not like Photoshop in contrast to other products; I refer to posts #1 and #38.

Crow: In calling the pictures processed with Photoshop "Kitsch" I would assume that you might just lack the experience (or practice) to produce pleasing results with this product. This is, however, not much of a problem when there are other products which help you get pleasing results faster. I don't think anyone thinks it remarkable when you say you prefer Lightroom or Aperture over Photoshop.

Some of your posts here in this thread are a bit hard to read because you often lump all of your text into a single paragraph. Breaking a longish text into several paragraphs, one for each statement or idea, can work wonders for the comprehension of a text.

[Loren]

My take on this is Crow did not do himself a favor by the way he approached the forum with his question.

 

First, he stated he wanted an M8 due to B&W, then started laying out a bunch of criteria on what he was willing to do and what he was not willing to do. I think that raised more than a few red flags here for me and others I presume.

 

Second, he did not do a very good job communicating. I understand that English is not everyone's primary language (even some US citizens often can't seem to master the language), so both sender and reader needs to be considerate of that.

 

That means the writer needs to be aware that what he thinks he is saying may not be what he is saying; just as well as the reader needs to be cognizant that what they are reading may not be the writer's intent.

 

Back to the red flags. Crow, you may need to back up a bit. While the digital world of process may be daunting, it is learnable. However, you have to be committed to trying things that might seem wrong or undesirable at first. I am not speaking about Photoshop, I am talking about having an open mind. There is nothing wrong with asking for clarification.

 

Imagine a student going for guitar lessons telling the instructor what they were not willing to learn. It would be perfectly acceptable for the instructor to throw the student out. Why should the instructor waste their time on someone that refuses to follow the lesson?

 

My points here are two-fold.

 

One, Crow you should probably look at a couple of beginning digital photography classes locally. Check your camera stores or join a club.

 

I would not worry about what camera or software you buy. I would recommend buying only what you need for the courses and as cheap as you can. That way if you don't stick to it you have minimized the loss of your investment.

 

Two, there are some really good photographers here with a whole lot more experience than I will probably ever have. When asking for advice you should respect their advice, even if you think it is wrong or they are being mean. Maybe they are trying to teach you something. I tend to try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

Lastly, the written messages here come from people, not books, not computers. It is very hard to engage in meaningful conversation via written word. Humans are genetically "programmed" to socially interact face to face. Blind discourse by the written word is about the least effective way to communicate. So, all of us need to take that into consideration.

[crow]

Philip,

thanks for taking off the tension from personal comments towards the essence which is D Photography. You are correct on Photoshop, I admit I am not an expert, but agree with you in that anyone can use lightroom, DXO, Aperture and so on.

I will do my best to divide into different paragraphs.

For me it all is connected to photography, as everything is under a little, or lots of light, photo, meaning light in Greek. With digital Photography, now that it sort of became more of a pop mass medium, all aspects of our everyday life, from ethics to politics, to social construction, it all affects and is found deeply with in photography.

[crow]

Loren,

I am not taking photo D classes. I would though take darkroom ones. A local photographer showed me the way in 20 minutes, not a class really , but a present I am greatful of, and indeed helped me experiment with developing, not printing yet.

Mentioning the guitar is nice, I am a player. I can play, but looking at the simplicity and sometimes the element of repetition in blues, I can't stop thinking that it is kind of wrong, lots of guitar teachers would think it is boring repetitive and cliché, however the blues are the blues, they don't pretend they're jazz or classical music. It is a whole different atmosphere involved, and no blues man would ever take lessons from a classicaly trained jazz guitarist.

I haven't any way. This is why every old blues man had their own style, which might seem wrong to a music school trained musician, but it has what they can't have, blood sweat and tears, theirs simply lacks. No photoshop please.

I agree there's room for lots of stuff to learn here on the forum and I apologize if I have driven the nice people away, not the mean ones, just the good ones, OK?

I think it is unfair for readers to continue this thread, cause everything there is to say has been told, and people don't really care in who has been bad or good. We should stay within the photo-knowledge parameters, and this has already been consumed in my thread. Sorry for everything irrelevant.

Yes Jaap, now you're talking nice, I agree with the very last paragraph in the latest reply you posted. I wouldn't say it is the "fault" of photoshop though, but for me it is something that drives me away, and in my own aesthetically professional opinion as someone who has studied painting in University and has been teaching it to young kids, it is far from what i think to be closer to what has been defined as Art Photography, mainly in the 20th century speaking. Sorry.

[jaapv]

Your choice, but I still think you are blaming the brush for the painting.

[Henry Fool]

I too don't care much for photoshop but I occasionally use it in my workflow. Photoshop itself isn't bad, it can be utilised to finish an image to exactly your own personal taste.

 

90% of my M8 images have minimal processing, mostly directly in Lightroom and any that have been edited in Photoshop would never have any of the traits one would associate with a 'Photoshopped' image.

 

We could probably all agree that over-processed digital images lack finesse compared to a classic fine art b&w print but I'd blame the photographer not the tools. It's like the old adage 'There is no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners?'.

[crow]

Henry I agree, and I would consider your photos closer to the term photography than a photoshop processed one. The term photo-shop connotes to something which you have done for you, just like in a shop would, rather than something you do on your own.

To speak the truth, the detachment characterizing classical music does contain blood sweat and tears, and is more sophisticated than the blues. However, does this mean the blues are any less wiser talking about life than classical music is? No, it is as wise as classical and jazz.

[satijntje]

is this not an M8 thread?????

Pls come back to the point.

 

Thx

John

[crow]

Luigi, thanks for the input.

 

OK people I found an M8.

I will need an instructions manual, I hate downloading A4 pages from the internet,

and the Leica software. Any idea where to buy the software from, apart from ebay which i am already familiar with?

Last and most important, lightroom won't accept my scanned images. It already accommodates ORF files, having had problems turning them into DNG files. Can and will lightroom work with the E-P1, Nikon coolscan IV ED, and the Leica M8? Obviously not opening up all three at the same time. But it already doesn't accept Nikon scanned images from my Leica M5. Leica M8 +software+lightroom?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

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[jaapv]

Ermm- there is no Leica software The camera originally came with Capture One. You can download a trial version from the Phase One website. If you have Lightroom you do not need it.

Yes, Lightroom will open Leica DNGs.

 

To what format do you scan your files? Lightroom accepts TIFF or JPG files.