R80 summilux vs M75summilux sharpness

[k-hawinkler]

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Not really. If the lens is adjusted to focus correctly at 2.8 as the post you responded to states, it will shift when you use it at 1.4.

 

 

Jaap, you are not talking about the 80 Summilux R here, are you?

[NB23]

Not really. If the lens is adjusted to focus correctly at 2.8 as the post you responded to states, it will shift when you use it at 1.4.

 

Which is frankly pathetic, if you think about it. Because look, by this logic, if it's sharp at f1.4 it will then be off at all the other stops. That would be a serious design flaw, and absolutely unworthy of the Leica name.

 

And of course in the real world, once adjusted, the lux 75 is sharp at all stops, includingg wide open.

 

I was really expecting a sharper logic from you Jaap.

[farnz]

A picture speaks a thousand words. The 80 Suumilux-R is certainly sharp enough for me wide open but as has been debated ad infinitum in other threads it depends what your concept of sharpness is (contrast, acutance, something else?).

 

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80 Summilux-R at f/1.4 with Leica M

[A miller]

Thank you for this tip, I've just found him and pm him soon.

He shoots amazing pictures and street portraits. I alo saw that there's a certain depth in his images, this is what I like, I'm curious if he's using the R80 mostly and what his opinion is about my problem.

 

Indeed, my favorite aspects of his portraits are the way the lens renders colors as well as bokeh when shot wide open

[cpclee]

So, I can assume that nothing is wrong with my R80, it's just the nature of this lens..?

 

My lens was bought used. I sent it to Leica USA when I discovered uneven sharpness across the frame. They said it had one or more elements misaligned and needed to be sent to Solms to be recalibrated, which in the end costed me over $300. The unevenness was gone and it was very sharp and perfect but just not at wide open, where it was always soft if you view details at 100% crop. I have always assumed that was just the nature of the lens.

[NB23]

Not really. If the lens is adjusted to focus correctly at 2.8 as the post you responded to states, it will shift when you use it at 1.4.

 

And what happens if you adjust it to focus correctly at f1.4? It will shift at f2, f2.8 and f4 until an adequate depth of field catches on?

 

You call that a normal design, then??

 

Come on Jaap, stop the bad joke.

[gpwhite]

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If I understand it correct from cpclee (citaat #4), it seems that the R80 is not razor sharp at 1,4 even after a CLA. If I can be sure that a CLA can make the difference I would for sure send it to Solms.

I still hope that somebody will reply here with a R80 that's razor sharp at 1,4

 

Peter, I definitely prefer the R-80. I used my R-80 (a later, ROM model FWIW) extensively on my Sony A7R before sending off the Sony and just shooting everything on my M240 with miserable EVF.

 

I previously compared my R-80 with two 75 Summiluxes at an Overgaard class. I expected the 75 M lenses to be superior because of their owners' exclamations and all the hype we read on line. But for me the rendering of 3D and richer colors were superior with the R-80. My R-80 is certainly sharp enough, but I would not consider either the 75 or 80 Summiluxes to have bite at open apertures. It is the zero distortion rendering and smooth transitions that make the R-80 images unique and remarkable.

 

All of this said, I am shooting my R-80 at f/1.7 now because of hefty veiling flare at f/1.4. I plan to send the lens to Wetzlar this summer for CLA with the hope that veiling problem can be reduced. I am surprised that 1/2 stop makes such a big difference, but it does!

 

In summary, the R-80 is a dream lens for me and preferred to the 75 M lenses that I tried. But neither compare to the crispness of the APO 90 at f/2 (similar razor thin DOF), if that is what you mean by razor sharp.

 

Peter

[gpwhite]

If you look at the image posted by Farnz (#23) above, it really shows the strengths of the R-80 beautifully. Look at the hands (zero distortion) and the silky transitions around the face and hair... wow!

 

But the rings do not come through with biting detail. They are in focus, but not edgy. This is the look of the R-80. If you want edgy rings, the APO 90 will do the trick, but the hands and transitions in OOF will not glow.

[Guest]

And what happens if you adjust it to focus correctly at f1.4? It will shift at f2, f2.8 and f4 until an adequate depth of field catches on?

...

 

Yes, so it was described to me by Leica service.

Since the Summilux 1.4-75mm was designed at a time when photography was exclusively on film, it was a topic of less interest at that time than it is today in the use of digital recording media and advanced demands on image size and detail resolution.

So my question is whether you can confirm or neglect this focus shift with the M-240 and electronic viewfinder.

[Peter E]

Thank you all for this input!! So, the R80 can be sharp at 1.4 as seen in the image and the reactions I'm reading here.

 

Nice image from the guy and the hands !

For me the hands are sharp enough, they come loose from the guy and this is what I miss in my images. Of course this lens renderes a beautiful bokeh.

 

I 'll post some images that I've made to see the difference with my R80.

[Peter E]

First image is M9, 75lux

Second image D800 with R80, both focused on the eyes.

 

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[Peter E]

Those are crops and both shot with Sony Nex on tripod and timer.

Focus on stamp of the lowest flower with viewfinder at max magnification.

 

Left image is the 75.

 

For me the 75 is giving a more 3d effect.

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[Peter E]

I also made a shot on a Focal lens calibration target. Both at 1,4 and focussed with viewfinder at max magnification.

First is R80.

 

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[jaapv]

On the flower pair there is a different plane of focus, so it is impossible to tell (Top: front flower, bottom: second flower).

I find it impossible to judge on handheld shots anyway. Such thin focus; the slightest movement will throw every comparison out of the window.

[jaapv]

Which is frankly pathetic, if you think about it. Because look, by this logic, if it's sharp at f1.4 it will then be off at all the other stops. That would be a serious design flaw, and absolutely unworthy of the Leica name.

 

And of course in the real world, once adjusted, the lux 75 is sharp at all stops, includingg wide open.

 

I was really expecting a sharper logic from you Jaap.

That is called focus shift my friend, and many fast lenses suffer from it, pathetic or not. The focus difference will usually disappear into DOF from 4.0 upwards, that being the reason that lenses are sometimes adjusted to the preference of the user.

 

And what happens if you adjust it to focus correctly at f1.4? It will shift at f2, f2.8 and f4 until an adequate depth of field catches on?

 

You call that a normal design, then??

 

Come on Jaap, stop the bad joke.

Did you miss all the Summilux 35 threads? Leica even changed the design because of it.

[jaapv]

Jaap, you are not talking about the 80 Summilux R here, are you?

If you are talking about the through the lens focusing, that is only true if you focus at working aperture.(see below)

If you are suggesting it has no focus shift, I can assure you it has, albeit probably a bit less than the M 75 version.

[jaapv]

Yes, so it was described to me by Leica service.

Since the Summilux 1.4-75mm was designed at a time when photography was exclusively on film, it was a topic of less interest at that time than it is today in the use of digital recording media and advanced demands on image size and detail resolution.

So my question is whether you can confirm or neglect this focus shift with the M-240 and electronic viewfinder.

 

The way to get around focus shift with the EVF is to focus at working aperture. If you focus wide open and close down(assuming you are able to hold the camera absolutely steady or are working from a tripod) you will be introducing focus shift again.

[Peter E]

On the flower pair there is a different plane of focus, so it is impossible to tell (Top: front flower, bottom: second flower).

I find it impossible to judge on handheld shots anyway. Such thin focus; the slightest movement will throw every comparison out of the window.

 

Thanks for your reply Jaap.

I did both shots on a tripod, only changed the lenses. I focussed live view with an electronic viewfinder at x9 magnification on the stamp of the bottom flower in both pictures and released the shutter with a timer set at 10seconds.

Of course I have different focal planes, 80 and 75 but the 75 looks more crisp and sharp arround the blades(compare the left green blade against the window in both images) and the 80 is softer.

This is what's it's all about, I prefer the 75 look in this samples but it's not mine and I want to know if something is wrong with my 80.

[Peter E]

I have shot thousands of frames with my 80 Summilux R. I have used it with my DMR & more recently with my D800.

 

Although there can be legitimate differences of opinions regarding differences of the R verses the M versions, I would think that the images are nearly identical. Either versions of these lenses require extremely accurate focus, wide open. Wide open, I think the 80 Summilux is Mandler's finest design. The super thin dof requires lots of practice.

 

For the past 18 months the 80 Summilux has remained attached to my Nikon D800 & there it shall remain. I believe that having the ability to "see" the focus before shooting is the key element when using this lens wide open. At f1.4 the dof is razer thin and the bokeh is the finest I have encountered in all the years I have been making images. For me this is the pinnacle of perfection.

 

Thanks for your reply Ben!

I've checked your site and looked at your wonderful street portraits, I love them!

What I see also is that in every image the subject is coming loose from the background and this is something that I miss in my test pictures with the R80. If I use the M75 on my M9, I have this nice bokeh and 3D rendering and this is the reason that I've buyed this R80 but I'm a bit dissapointed in the look that I get(compared to the M75).

Don't get me wrong, I like the bokeh a lot but it lacks a little bit of 3D and this is something I do see in your pictures...

So, is something wrong, will a calibration help?

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Peter E]

A picture speaks a thousand words. The 80 Suumilux-R is certainly sharp enough for me wide open but as has been debated ad infinitum in other threads it depends what your concept of sharpness is (contrast, acutance, something else?).

 

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80 Summilux-R at f/1.4 with Leica M

 

This is beautiful! Thanks for sharing!

I'm happy to see that this is done with your R80 wide open.

My R80 renders not like this(on a D800 or Nex), I'll not get this crisp and sharp detail arround the fingers...