Leica M8 at 1250 ISO

[newphotomike]

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Hello,

 

I recently had two different M8's. Both now returned to Leica. I had an assignment, shooting in some Detroit Jazz clubs, that required shooting in low light. I purchased the long awaited M8 and put it to use. Immediately I noticed lines running through the files. The images were shot at 1250 ISO. A small selection of these image files are attached here. Both cameras I tested had these problems.

 

I would like to order another M8 but am reluctant to do so, until this problem is resolved. Am I alone with these problems? Is any one else having problems in low light levels?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael

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[mat_mcdermott]

All the pixel-width solid lines are 100% not normal. I've never seen them before and use ISO 1250 fairly frequently. In general I've found ISO 1250 to be quite usable. The only problems I've had are in the shadows if I try to bring up the shadow detail too much in post. In which case I get all sorts of banding, but it's probably no worse than any other digital file. I would send the camera in to be repaired/replaced.

[jaapv]

The yellow horizontgal band is a known bug - fairly rare; Leica ar working on a firmware fix we hope. The other lines appear to be dead pixel rows. We have seen a few of those on the forum lately. There appears to be something wrong with Kodak QC it seems to me. You are really unlucky. At the moment nearly all buyers seem to receive flawless cameras.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Vertical one-pixel wide lines (in a horizontal frame) are grounds for grabbing a new body and letting the dealer sort out the one you were given. The wider, blobby line coming from a table-candle just at the edge of the frame or outside the frame on the last pic is a black level anomaly that has been reported and which Leica claims they hope to fix in firmware. It only happens over a few degrees of angle, but yet, it is annoying and it ruins pictures.

 

scott

[marknorton]

Well, you've got it all and I have to agree the results are less than impressive.

 

The thin black lines are faulty pixel columns - new sensor required.

 

The bar at high ISO 58% of the way across the image is fxed in firmware V1.102.

 

The green bar running all the way from the edge to the sensor is caused by a bright light just outside the image frame which leaks into the edge of the sensor and upsets the black reference. There is no fix currently though I have suggested to Leica an approach to fixing it in firmware.

 

[Edit: some replication here due to posting at the same time, but we seem to agree! Don't live the camera as it is, it's not right.]

[etienne_werner]

Hello,

 

I recently had two different M8's. Both now returned to Leica. I had an assignment, shooting in some Detroit Jazz clubs, that required shooting in low light. I purchased the long awaited M8 and put it to use. Immediately I noticed lines running through the files. The images were shot at 1250 ISO. A small selection of these image files are attached here. Both cameras I tested had these problems.

 

I would like to order another M8 but am reluctant to do so, until this problem is resolved. Am I alone with these problems? Is any one else having problems in low light levels?

 

Thank you,

 

Michael

Hello Michael,

 

I've been using ISO1250 a few times now. I don't see what you have had with your M8. Compared to a D5 you will get a little bit more noise but it is still very usable.

I am including a picture which I shot of a R&R band here in the Netherlands. I was pleasently surprised by the quality. It does have noise in the dark areas of the picture. I have used NO NR.

Kind Regards,

 

Etienne

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[newphotomike]

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Thanks for all your input. Both cameras that I had are back in the hands of Leica. I'm willing and anxious to order another one, but just wish Leica would have sorted all this out before launching this camera. I just don't get it. If they would have put this camera in the hands of some pros before.............but this is just history now I suppose.

 

Michael

[marknorton]

Michael, there are some thigs we still don't know about the launch of the camera.

 

We do know that "trusted" professionals (trusted in the sense they would not rock the boat, not that they would give honest opinions) were given early access to the camera but told to ignore image quality as a work still in progress.

 

We don't know why they chose to ship the camera a month earlier than planned only to have people like Pascal on this forum blow the whistle on image quality within a few days, a temporary halting of shipping of the camera, a ruinously expensive hardware recall, lens discount and free filter programme.

 

6 months, the hardware is fixed, the firmware updated, the discounted lenses are shipped, the filters soon will be but there are still residual issues with the camera, some straight-forward QC issues such as with your sensor, some still requiring work on the firmware.

 

I think you've been unlucky to have 2 bad cameras...

[charlesphoto99]

Mine's back at Leica for a row of dead pixels only seen at high iso's. Not an uncommon problem, alas. It also has had a couple of siezures, as well as a badly adjusted rangefinder out of the box (which I took care of myself). Yeah, I'm a bit disgruntled to say the least. For some reason it has to go back to Solms, even though I know they've been outright replacing cameras with dead pixels. I let them know I'm a working pro but I don't think that holds too much water with them. I just don't think NJ's been given enough say on the M8 - a problem for us US users (particuarly west coast). Two of my lenses are also in the red dot black hole.....

 

I think it's all worth it, though out shooting my Mamiya 7 this weekend I'm sometimes not so sure.....

[chris_tribble]

Certainly my experience at 2500 has been very encouraging (see http://www.leica-camera-user.com/leica-m8-forum/22789-m8-2500-a.html?highlight=2500) One issue with the posts that you've shown seems that they're way over exposed (or over processed if they were from RAW capture). This will give noise problems and may even induce other pixel problems. Interested to see what your bodies did with different exposure values. BTW - were you shooting RAW or JPEG. I've not tried JPEG at all with mty M8s, but I could imagine this would be another source of issues...

 

Hope you get things fixed - I feel for you. From where I stand the M8 is now an indispensable tool. Hate to be without it.

[sean_reid]

Michael, there are some thigs we still don't know about the launch of the camera.

 

We do know that "trusted" professionals (trusted in the sense they would not rock the boat, not that they would give honest opinions) were given early access to the camera but told to ignore image quality as a work still in progress.

.

 

Actually Mark, you know nothing at all about how Constantine Manos, Tom Abrahamson, Ron and the other beta testers were chosen and I think slandering them on a public forum is in bad taste. You don't know what Leica told any of them and you don't know what they told Leica during the testing. Your conspiracy theories about the testing and launch of the M8 continue to be unfounded and insulting. You've often insinuated inside knowledge about all this that you do not have. Its very nice that you've dissected an M8 for us but that doesn't mean that you know the first thing about what went on during the R&D of this camera. So, I'd appreciate if you'd qualify your various theories as theories, lest people think you are speaking from actual knowledge. I was not a beta tester but I do have some knowledge of what went on and know that your theories are wrong.

 

Here is what I can say, speaking in general about prototype cameras from various companies. It is common that prototypes are functional but are presented as being "unfinished" with respect to firmware, file quality, etc. So it common for manufacturers, again speaking generally, to ask beta testers to ignore file quality from a prototype camera. People should not be knocking the photographers who tested this camera as a prototype because they have no idea what those testers may have told Leica, what the response might have been, etc.

 

Let's stick with the facts and leave the conspiracy theories to those who have nothing better to do.

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

From my conversations with leica there were many things that changed between beta camera's and the final product so it really is a mute point and really means nothing anyway at this point. Old history and believe me as a beta tester today i get firmware but no information about it at all. Really not worth rehashing

[sean_reid]

Hi Guy,

 

There always are many things that change in that process and customers who buy production cameras may never know what issues were sorted out because of feedback and other work by beta testers.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

[Guest guy_mancuso]

I agree , just look at some of the newest firmware today in 1.102 and a lot of that came from beta testers, not patting my own back but we can report our findings and it is up to Leica to fix them or make adjustments on different options.

[marknorton]

Hi Guy,

 

There always are many things that change in that process and customers who buy production cameras may never know what issues were sorted out because of feedback and other work by beta testers.

 

Cheers,

 

Sean

 

Yes, yes, but ultimately we judge the effectiveness of Leica's Beta Test program on what slipped through, not on what was caught which, as you rightly say, is not common knowledge.

 

I think we can be pretty certain (there I go again, venturing an opinion), that Leica's score card in this subject reads "Could do better".

[sean_reid]

Yes, yes, but ultimately we judge the effectiveness of Leica's Beta Test program on what slipped through, not on what was caught which, as you rightly say, is not common knowledge.

 

I think we can be pretty certain (there I go again, venturing an opinion), that Leica's score card in this subject reads "Could do better".

 

If you want to venture an opinion as an opinion Mark, I have no objections. But when you say something like: "We do know that "trusted" professionals..." you're no longer venturing an opinion but, rather, presenting something as fact. The key words there are "we (note the plural) know". vs. "I (Mark Norton) suspect, believe, etc." That's an important difference.

 

Sean

[wparsonsgisnet]

As I contemplate the past 6 months in the life of the M8, I count both myself and Leica lucky.

 

We don't know what the actual failure rate on the camera has been, but it surely takes great pictures. What really amazes me is the unexpected receptiveness to criticism and willingness to work with beta testers that they have displayed.

 

This glass is definitely half full.

[craigrmurray]

If you want to venture an opinion as an opinion Mark, I have no objections. But when you say something like: "We do know that "trusted" professionals..." you're no longer venturing an opinion but, rather, presenting something as fact. The key words there are "we (note the plural) know". vs. "I (Mark Norton) suspect, believe, etc." That's an important difference.

 

Sean

Sean:

 

I just returned from the LHSA Spring Shoot in Santa Fe, NM, and had many conversations with Christian Erhardt of Leica marketing (as I know you and Guy have had, too) concerning all things Leica (more on that in another thread in the digital forum. He told me that all of the original M8 beta testing was done with photographers from inside Germany, as a matter of expediency. Tom Abrahammson was there, too, but I didn't ask him about the M8, other than his working on a new handgrip -- we mostly talked about cats (particularly Mr. Barnack ).

 

Having been flamed on this forum by Mr. Norton (by posting what I thought was an innocent joke and immediately apologized for), I understand your concern with people posting opinions that are unproven by anything but hearsay and innuendo.

 

I will add that Leica (according to Christian) was most impressed by Mr. Norton's "Anatomy of the M8" thread, in demonstrating just what a design challenge the whole project was.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Thanks Craig , hope they are using my idea on a new grip with handstrap

[craigrmurray]

Thanks Craig , hope they are using my idea on a new grip with handstrap

Guy:

 

What's your idea? I like having a grip, esp. for verticals, and would love to have a strap. I only talked to Tom A., and don't know if his design will incorporate a handstrap.