quadraticadder Posted June 13, 2014 Share #1 Posted June 13, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Hello all. Does anyone know if the M240 applies distortion correction to jpeg files? I know it applies vignetting correction. I'm using Lightroom to process files, and it provides lens profile distortion correction for DNG files, but not for jpegs. Comments? Thanks and best, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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jdlaing Posted June 13, 2014 Share #2 Posted June 13, 2014 Hello all. Does anyone know if the M240 applies distortion correction to jpeg files? I know it applies vignetting correction. I'm using Lightroom to process files, and it provides lens profile distortion correction for DNG files, but not for jpegs. Comments?Thanks and best, Steve Look at a photo JPEG and RAW side by side. An architecture wide angle should be able to tell you. I believe it does but not as infinitely adjustable as in a RAW image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share #3 Posted June 13, 2014 Look at a photo JPEG and RAW side by side. An architecture wide angle should be able to tell you. I believe it does but not as infinitely adjustable as in a RAW image. ****** I was looking at a few side by side, and came to a similar conclusion. I think there is some distortion correction by the M240 in jpeg mode. Best, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 13, 2014 Share #4 Posted June 13, 2014 I don't believe that the M (typ 240) applies any corrections for distortion whether saving DNG or, JPEG nor for the previews seen on the LCD. The corrections applied for vignetting and 'red edge' effects are f/stop independent and applied to all according to lens detection data. From the default camera profile, adjustments to colour space, white balance, colour, contrast and, saturation are applied to JPEG and previewable via LCD as is normal for all cameras outputting JPEG. Those adjustments are provided as instructions editable after the fact without penalty with the DNG of course Be careful to distinguish between in camera corrections/adjustments and those that may be applied (by default?) by your raw converter/image developing software. If you want to perform a side by side comparison look at those program settings as part of your test. you might like to share your results here? For the Leica T there is some distortion correction in camera as is very common practice. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 13, 2014 Author Share #5 Posted June 13, 2014 Okay, I'll take some pictures of brick walls, jpeg and DNG, run them through light room and post them. I'm only concerned with distortions, here, so its unlikely any of the functions like colour space, etc that the camera applies to jpegs would make a difference to distortion. I'll put up some pictures over the weekend. Best, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 13, 2014 Share #6 Posted June 13, 2014 Okay, I'll take some pictures of brick walls, jpeg and DNG, run them through light room and post them. I'm only concerned with distortions, here, so its unlikely any of the functions like colour space, etc that the camera applies to jpegs would make a difference to distortion.I'll put up some pictures over the weekend. Best, Steve How wide of a lens do you have? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share #7 Posted June 14, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) How wide of a lens do you have? Summitar 50mm F2.5 Best, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share #8 Posted June 14, 2014 Summitar 50mm F2.5Best, Steve I meant Summarit. Best again, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 14, 2014 Share #9 Posted June 14, 2014 I meant Summarit. Best again, Steve I don't think you're going to get much distortion with 50mm. I generally don't see it until I get down to 16-18-21 with the WATE. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 14, 2014 Author Share #10 Posted June 14, 2014 Okay, here's my attempt to upload the images. The conditions were: White Balance: daylight. Camera leveled on tripod by artificial horizon function. Self timer used to trip shutter. Focused using focus peeking in live view. ISO: 200. F 2.5, Shutter speed 1/250 Lens detection, automatic. Distance to bricks ~ 3 feet. Sharpness, saturation, contrast: all standard. Film mode off. Color space: sRGB DNG compression: on. I took one picture in fine jpeg mode, another in DNG. The files were opened in lightroom, exported as jpegs resized to 1024X684. The top is the Jpeg the bottom is the DNG. In my opinion, when flipping back and forth between them, it appears that the distortion is different between the two. What do others think? Is this some sort of distortion correction applied by the in-camera jpeg processor, or am I imagining things? Best and thanks, Steve Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/228793-distortion-correction-in-jpeg/?do=findComment&comment=2610844'>More sharing options...
jdlaing Posted June 14, 2014 Share #11 Posted June 14, 2014 If it is there it is minuscule. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share #12 Posted June 15, 2014 If it is there it is minuscule. The lens only has 1% distortion to begin with according to Leica's data. Lightroom's lens profile distortion correction to the DNG has only a small effect too. And please don't misunderstand, I don't think its a bad thing if the M240 does apply some distortion correction to the JPEG. In fact, I find it an advantage if it does. Best and thanks, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
01af Posted June 15, 2014 Share #13 Posted June 15, 2014 No, the M (Typ 240) doesn't perform any in-camera distortion corrections, neither to the DNG files nor to the JPEG files. It's vignetting and red-edge correction only, for both DNG and JPEG. Same with M8, M9, and M-E. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 15, 2014 Author Share #14 Posted June 15, 2014 One last post of pictures of bricks, folks (before you all think that I'm losing my mind LOL). Here's the f2.5 DNG files with (the top image), and without (bottom) Lightroom profile correction. There is a difference, that can be seen by flipping back and forth between them (the bricks in the centre bulge out a little by the profile correction). I suggest that as a firmware addition, or perhaps in the next M, it would be nice to have lens profile distortion correction as a switchable option that can be applied to the in-camera Jpegs. And it is a pain that Lightroom only lets you do profile correction on the DNG files for Leica, not the jpegs. Best, Steve Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/228793-distortion-correction-in-jpeg/?do=findComment&comment=2611441'>More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 16, 2014 Share #15 Posted June 16, 2014 Steve back in my post #4 I suggested that you check for exactly that in your comparison. Be careful to distinguish between in camera corrections/adjustments and those that may be applied (by default?) by your raw converter/image developing software. Do keep in mind too that you may not want distortion correction. You may prefer the effect that the lens actually produces optically. Very few lenses (none that I can think of off hand) have zero pin-cushion or barrel distortion natively. All optics designs are a compromise to some degree. For the bulk of Leica lens designs the levels are very low in any case of course and it makes very little difference in practice. For the real wides there is more but again you may not choose to use that correction anyway except perhaps say for an architectural application? The JPEG as stored by the camera (any camera) is not going to retain all of the developing instructions that are part of the DNG file. The main point of a JPEG is to provide a pleasing rendition with the adjustments already applied and of course that is very suitable for many purposes. When you want by far the most control of course you shoot raw (hint hint, you really sound like a photographer who ought to be shooting raw in the first place. The files are almost no more work if your image program is set up simply and you haven't thrown away so much data to start with) You can however, apply any correction profile that you like manually to DNG, JPEGs or TIFFs etc in developing if you like. You can apply any profile at all manually from other brands or anything else ,even wildly unsuitable corrections. Any correction profile is editable in any case. The CAMERA does store all of the developing instructions for everything else of course providing you shoot raw. Are you noticing a theme here? But again there is zero distortion correction going on in camera with the M8, M9, Monochrom and M (typ 240) and there is nothing to switch on or off there in JPEGs or DNG in camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
250swb Posted June 16, 2014 Share #16 Posted June 16, 2014 How do you know the wall isn't distorted and the camera is/maybe/not applying the correction to something that doesn't need correcting? Besides which if there is/maybe/not any distortion it will be exaggerated if you focus at 3' and if this is a critical problem that's causing your concern over distortion there are many more cameras that can focus better at 3' than a Leica. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoppyman Posted June 16, 2014 Share #17 Posted June 16, 2014 Leica Camera publishes calculated MTF figures and distortion figures for every lens that they market. For those no longer manufactured that data is available in print. Gaah! the camera is NOT applying any form of distortion correction at any time to any file. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2014 Share #18 Posted June 16, 2014 I think this misconception is brought on by present-day mirrorless, including the T, having software corrections calculated in the design. The M has indeed NO distortion correction built in, as the lenses are not designed that way. As said, any (minimal) distortion correction can be applied in postprocessing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
quadraticadder Posted June 16, 2014 Author Share #19 Posted June 16, 2014 Steve back in my post #4 I suggested that you check for exactly that in your comparison. Be careful to distinguish between in camera corrections/adjustments and those that may be applied (by default?) by your raw converter/image developing software. Do keep in mind too that you may not want distortion correction. You may prefer the effect that the lens actually produces optically. Very few lenses (none that I can think of off hand) have zero pin-cushion or barrel distortion natively. All optics designs are a compromise to some degree. For the bulk of Leica lens designs the levels are very low in any case of course and it makes very little difference in practice. For the real wides there is more but again you may not choose to use that correction anyway except perhaps say for an architectural application? The JPEG as stored by the camera (any camera) is not going to retain all of the developing instructions that are part of the DNG file. The main point of a JPEG is to provide a pleasing rendition with the adjustments already applied and of course that is very suitable for many purposes. When you want by far the most control of course you shoot raw (hint hint, you really sound like a photographer who ought to be shooting raw in the first place. The files are almost no more work if your image program is set up simply and you haven't thrown away so much data to start with) You can however, apply any correction profile that you like manually to DNG, JPEGs or TIFFs etc in developing if you like. You can apply any profile at all manually from other brands or anything else ,even wildly unsuitable corrections. Any correction profile is editable in any case. The CAMERA does store all of the developing instructions for everything else of course providing you shoot raw. Are you noticing a theme here? But again there is zero distortion correction going on in camera with the M8, M9, Monochrom and M (typ 240) and there is nothing to switch on or off there in JPEGs or DNG in camera. Many thanks for your informative response. I have an eye-fi mobi card and usually set the camera to take DNG + jpeg basic. The eye-fi sends the basic jpegs to my phone or iPad were I edit them with Perfectly Clear to show people the pics then and there, or to send small files around the internet. The DNG's I process later with Lightroom. When I process the DNG's, I almost always use distortion correction using lens profiles. I suppose I do so out of habit, and the desire to get the most representative image, but it does make a difference in landscapes or images with fences or buildings. I own a summarit 50mm F2.5 and a Canadian ver. 3 summicron 35mm (I find the summilux 35mm LR profile works best with the 'cron). I really like the character of the summicron so I sometimes don't use distortion correction, as you said. Now the thing is, I’m about to go on a vacation and there will be many, many pictures that will mostly be taken in Jpeg fine mode. I’ll switch to DNG for the good stuff. There will be no time to process all those DNG’s if everything was in DNG. So it would have been nice if there was a toggle to switch on or off profile distortion correction with in-camera jpegs. The jpegs from the M240 are pretty nice as it is, and there isn't much distortion with M lenses, but switchable profile correction would be appreciated. My D800e has the option, and I almost always left it on for jpegs. Mind you, the D800e has sat on the shelf most of the time since the M240 arrived. I’ll look into applying some profile to the jpegs in Lightroom, or perhaps with software that does batch processing. Thanks again for your post, Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 16, 2014 Share #20 Posted June 16, 2014 Why don't you use DNG+ jpeg fine? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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