philipus Posted May 2, 2014 Author Share #21 Posted May 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Using an MM I'd say if you were concentrating on taking pictures the associated noise is insignificant compared to the work at hand, and in any sort of noisy environment like a street anybody three feet away from an MM grinding its gears won't hear it anyway, so what's the fuss about? As regards waiting for an updated MM I think you have to weigh up if you need to make B&W pictures now, or if it can wait. If it can wait why not wait for the one after next, which will be even better than one based on the M240? Steve Good points Steve, thank you. I agree that when one is absorbed by the act of photographing any noise from the shutter mechanism, pretty much regardless of the camera used, will not be annoying. I shot with EOS cameras for two decades before moving to film M and those Canon bodies are very loud, not only when pressing the shutter but also when loading and rewinding the film. But here, I am more curious about the Monochrom and any future sibling vs the film Ms which is really the more relevant comparison. There is a certain tactility to the whole M experience which is particularly pleasant with film Ms. Based on the little I know of digital Ms, only the M240 comes close to the film Ms with respect to the shutter sound and shutter mechanism. That's why I was wondering if the MM might/could be upgraded in this respect. I do agree with you that the "race for the next" is a plague that probably destroys a lot of the photographic enjoyment for those who decide to participate and turns people into gea addicts. This is one of the reasons (among a whole heap of other reasons) that I am very happy only to shoot film. In one of the photographic clubs I am part of there are frequent debates about "the next" model to be released of any particular brand, its new or updated features, improved dynamic range etc. I'm happy not to be in that situation. I have to admit that, today, I find the MM to be an interesting camera (and I say that even though I was the one starting one of the early threads questioning Leica's sanity in releasing it...). I'm pretty sure though that if cows suddenly began flying and I would ever buy a Monochrome, I would not be in that race but buy it to use it for a long time. cheers philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted May 2, 2014 Posted May 2, 2014 Hi philipus, Take a look here Will the M Monochrom be updated?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
250swb Posted May 2, 2014 Share #22 Posted May 2, 2014 And I was also one to question Leica's sanity when I saw the first photographs from the MM. I think perhaps the beta testers were too much in awe of Leica and didn't put their own imprint on the images, which we now know is a wonderful thing to do, with the files being so subtle and malleable. I was being devil's advocate in suggesting you wait for the next-but-one version. With new technology I think you have to jump early to get the most out of a camera, both in terms of productivity and lifespan, but it's difficult buying 'off plan' when a new camera is rumoured. I don't think anybody with the current MM will loose out much because I'm sure it will cultivate a classic status, that uniqueness is never to be repeated. Steve Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 2, 2014 Share #23 Posted May 2, 2014 I have a neighbor who is holding out for an updated MM. He was hoping for a Spring 2014 release. I was speaking with a dealer who is aware of his interest. Although Leica seems to be pretty tight-lipped, the dealer seemed to think that an upgrade to the MM was unlikely in 2014. But who knows?Leica will certainly be on a longer upgrade cycle with the Monochrom. I would not expect a new version before 2015 or 2016.Leica will walk its own way, but I would be very surprised at a Photokina 2014 announcement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pieterpronk Posted May 2, 2014 Share #24 Posted May 2, 2014 As I've said before (this questions comes up every once in a while), I doubt there is a market for a M240 Monochrom. It was a niche market to begin with, which I would think is pretty much saturated right now. Many M9 users were ready to upgrade to the M240 when it came out. I just don't think many Monochrom users will upgrade to a M240 Monochrom, unless it really is astonishingly better, which I can hardly imagine. It's not like there is this immense market of people who think a black and white only rangefinder camera is a worthy investment, and I would think the Monochrom saturated that market already. Besides the Monochrom seems to entice the luddites with it's return to basics mentality, so it's unwise to expect them to update their luddite-dream camera for the live view and video capabilities. If I were Leica I would skip the M240 and make a Monochrom of the next M. I bet you can keep selling the current Monochrom to those few who really want a Monochrom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 2, 2014 Share #25 Posted May 2, 2014 As I've said before (this questions comes up every once in a while), I doubt there is a market for a M240 Monochrom. It was a niche market to begin with, which I would think is pretty much saturated right now.Many M9 users were ready to upgrade to the M240 when it came out. I just don't think many Monochrom users will upgrade to a M240 Monochrom, unless it really is astonishingly better, which I can hardly imagine. It's not like there is this immense market of people who think a black and white only rangefinder camera is a worthy investment, and I would think the Monochrom saturated that market already. Besides the Monochrom seems to entice the luddites with it's return to basics mentality, so it's unwise to expect them to update their luddite-dream camera for the live view and video capabilities. If I were Leica I would skip the M240 and make a Monochrom of the next M. I bet you can keep selling the current Monochrom to those few who really want a Monochrom. I would be one to at least test a new Monochrom based on the new M platform, whatever iteration. After the M8.2, I skipped the M9 and MM in favor of the M240, not for LV or video, but because for me it's a more refined and better RF camera. I'm spoiled by its handling characteristics, and both the color and b/w results are terrific. I'd be interested, though, how Monochrom based b/w would compare against the M240. And only print tests will eventually determine if that translates to purchase. In the meantime, no rush. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanyasi Posted May 2, 2014 Share #26 Posted May 2, 2014 From what I have read, the MM was much more successful than Leica expected. I certainly would be interested in a new version. It's all qualitative and personal, but I think the MM is still the most fun Leica digital camera too shoot with. Mine has been at Leica New Jersey for cleaning and I miss it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulev Posted May 3, 2014 Share #27 Posted May 3, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) An upgrade is not always an improvement ... Leica, for me please the same image quality/sensor, a silent shutter, weather sealing, default ISO160 and max shutter speed of 1/8000th sec. V Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Lord Posted May 3, 2014 Share #28 Posted May 3, 2014 As I've said before (this questions comes up every once in a while), I doubt there is a market for a M240 Monochrom. It was a niche market to begin with, which I would think is pretty much saturated right now.Many M9 users were ready to upgrade to the M240 when it came out. I just don't think many Monochrom users will upgrade to a M240 Monochrom, unless it really is astonishingly better, which I can hardly imagine. It's not like there is this immense market of people who think a black and white only rangefinder camera is a worthy investment, and I would think the Monochrom saturated that market already. Besides the Monochrom seems to entice the luddites with it's return to basics mentality, so it's unwise to expect them to update their luddite-dream camera for the live view and video capabilities. If I were Leica I would skip the M240 and make a Monochrom of the next M. I bet you can keep selling the current Monochrom to those few who really want a Monochrom. Saturated market or keep on selling? Make your mind up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 3, 2014 Share #29 Posted May 3, 2014 An upgrade is not always an improvement ... Leica, for me please the same image quality/sensor, a silent shutter, weather sealing, default ISO160 and max shutter speed of 1/8000th sec. V I've said it before, but among the other improvements that make the M a better camera for taking photographs than the M9, the improved rangefinder is justification enough in itself for an upgrade. If ( and I repeat, if ) the sensor is capable of even better results too, then those serious photographers who suffer from an aversion from such things as LV will no doubt make that small sacrifice in order to have a camera that does its job better. If there's no market for that, it will not be Leica's fault, but it will be a sad day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted May 3, 2014 Share #30 Posted May 3, 2014 The Monochrom has seriously tempted me and is the only digital M to have done so. I hold off because the current MM, although an amazing camera, would be frustrating to me in some areas that are important to me. I could be persuaded with a lower base iso (100 would do, but prefer 50) better high iso performance, live view, 24mp and 1hr manual exposure capability (without the light leaks, thanks) and better weather sealing. I could also have been persuaded on a recent trip to the Isle of Skye after lugging a Cambo Wide 470, Fuji GX617, tripod, meter, film and filters up Sgurr Alasdair....or maybe the time that the decision will be made for me is getting closer! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanyasi Posted May 3, 2014 Share #31 Posted May 3, 2014 Please enlighten me; What is the significance of the base ISO being 50, 100, or 200? Does ISO mean the same thing for film as it does digital? I assume based on your comment that a base 50 has even less noise than a base 200. Thanks for any education on this point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted May 3, 2014 Share #32 Posted May 3, 2014 Please enlighten me; What is the significance of the base ISO being 50, 100, or 200? Does ISO mean the same thing for film as it does digital? I assume based on your comment that a base 50 has even less noise than a base 200. Thanks for any education on this point. ISO has multiple interpretations in the digital world….for a basic discussion, see this Wiki page, about half way down. As in the film days, besides noise, reduced ISO may allow one to open up the aperture (without use of ND filters) in bright light, which may serve as an advantage based on desired DOF, etc. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
honcho Posted May 3, 2014 Share #33 Posted May 3, 2014 I prefer longer exposure times without having to always stop down and/or use nd filters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulev Posted May 3, 2014 Share #34 Posted May 3, 2014 Please enlighten me; What is the significance of the base ISO being 50, 100, or 200? Does ISO mean the same thing for film as it does digital? I assume based on your comment that a base 50 has even less noise than a base 200. Thanks for any education on this point. Jack, Often, when shooting wide open ( large apertures) in bright conditions, you will reach/exceed the maximum ( fastest) shutter speed and this will result in overexposure. The Monochrom's default ( lowest) ISO value is ISO320, which gives you one stop less lattitude compared to the M9 ( default ISO160). Though you can select ISO160, it's not recommendable since this results in an decrease of dynamic range. Same goes for an M8, M9 ... selecting ISO80 will result in a decrease of DR. Therefore my "wishlist" ... a lower default ISO value and a max. shutter speed of 1/8000st sec, as in the M8. ( one of the strong points of the M8 ... it's shutter speed) You have a 2-stop advantage ( ISO160 vs ISO320 and 1/8000st sec vs 1/4000th sec). In other words, if the light is that bright that you need to select f2.8, you can still shoot at f1.4 with an M8. Canon has ( in general) a default ISO of 100 and 1/8000th sec shutter speed, Nikon ISO200. ISO320 and 1/4000th sec will force you to use an ND filter more often Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipus Posted May 5, 2014 Author Share #35 Posted May 5, 2014 The Monochrom has seriously tempted me and is the only digital M to have done so. I hold off because the current MM, although an amazing camera, would be frustrating to me in some areas that are important to me. I could be persuaded with a lower base iso (100 would do, but prefer 50) better high iso performance, live view, 24mp and 1hr manual exposure capability (without the light leaks, thanks) and better weather sealing. I agree. The MM is the only digital that has tempted me. There's a raging debate about CCD vs CMOS. For a pure B&W sensor, is there really any substance to claims that CCD would be better? Personally I would find Live View uninteresting though weather sealing would be nice. Cheers Philip Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted May 5, 2014 Share #36 Posted May 5, 2014 CCD vs CMos is quite irrelevant here. There is only one camera with a Bayer-filterless sensor and it happens to be a CCD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londonmember Posted May 5, 2014 Share #37 Posted May 5, 2014 I love my MM. Sure the M240 shutter is 'nicer' but to be honest I really don't notice when I'm concentrating on my photography.... As for base ISO. sure its a nuisance, but I just add ND filters, and tend to keep them on for the day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter H Posted May 5, 2014 Share #38 Posted May 5, 2014 I expect a 24mp sensor without the Bayer filter may well take the B&W improvements even further than the current MM has achieved, outweighing the negligible (at most) differences between CCD and CMOS. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IWC Doppel Posted May 5, 2014 Share #39 Posted May 5, 2014 I expect a 24mp sensor without the Bayer filter may well take the B&W improvements even further than the current MM has achieved, outweighing the negligible (at most) differences between CCD and CMOS. I hope it's better, then I'll be watching the adds when original monochrom's hit £3.5k Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tookaphotoof Posted May 5, 2014 Share #40 Posted May 5, 2014 Around that price in euro and I'm afraid If be tempted. If only for the fact I have a brand new battery left from the short time I owned the M8.2. Weak excuse, I know. I just want it eventually. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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