mjh Posted March 31, 2014 Share #121 Posted March 31, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Beating on the XV means criticizing Leica and its management. They should focus their limited resources on lenses and cameras which matter, such as the X1 and M9 did in 2009. They do. But while customers see the products currently available and sometimes those that are hinted at on rumour sites (which means their specs are fixed and development is mostly finished), Leica is working on the products to release in 1, 2, 3, or 4 years time. So some of the cameras that matter to Leica are cameras nobody outside Leica has any idea about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 31, 2014 Posted March 31, 2014 Hi mjh, Take a look here X Vario reduced price. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
bill Posted March 31, 2014 Share #122 Posted March 31, 2014 That's entirely understood. But the concern - in some quarters including this one - is the thinking going into those cameras. If the same people who thought the specifications of the XV were "good enough" to compete and grow market share in 2014 are now working on the cameras to be released in 2016... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecaton Posted March 31, 2014 Share #123 Posted March 31, 2014 I’m amazed at your insight about which cameras “matter”… Yep, always happy when I can be of assistance:cool: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkCambridgeshire Posted March 31, 2014 Share #124 Posted March 31, 2014 Spotted a secondhand XV today at a UK Premier dealer with just 60 shutter actuations and c/w hood and handgrip for just £1499 … Now that is a very reasonable price … but I'm also wondering if it's indicative of the rumoured T 701 model being even better value? When I bought my XV last May c/w same accessories plus a Leica M Neoprene case (it fits with hood attached) it cost approx £2.3K. dunk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2014 Share #125 Posted March 31, 2014 Spotted a secondhand XV today at a UK Premier dealer with just 60 shutter actuations and c/w hood and handgrip for just £1499 … Now that is a very reasonable price … but I'm also wondering if it's indicative of the rumoured T 701 model being even better value? When I bought my XV last May c/w same accessories plus a Leica M Neoprene case (it fits with hood attached) it cost approx £2.3K. dunk Good example that marketing rarely ever trickels down to the 2nd hand market. * While well kept M6 (TTL, newer and with the speed dial like digi-Ms) are champions in this field, compared to the MP, which at least are far away from freezing, Italian flag, card corruption, caffee stains and other "issues". Tools and status symbols coexist in paralel worlds. On different trajectories in time and value. _______ * where Fuji, Sony and Rikoh are free-falling. Also: does anybody remember Samsung's efforts, or Micro 5/4 last year's models? Though most of them make very decent pictures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BJDrew Posted April 2, 2014 Share #126 Posted April 2, 2014 Good example that marketing rarely ever trickels down to the 2nd hand market. *While well kept M6 (TTL, newer and with the speed dial like digi-Ms) are champions in this field, compared to the MP, which at least are far away from freezing, Italian flag, card corruption, caffee stains and other "issues". Tools and status symbols coexist in paralel worlds. On different trajectories in time and value. _______ * where Fuji, Sony and Rikoh are free-falling. Also: does anybody remember Samsung's efforts, or Micro 5/4 last year's models? Though most of them make very decent pictures ...and let us see how mushy the market gets for the X Varios when an APS-C system camera with the same zoom lens arrives as an interchangeable unit. Assuming the new body with a bundled lens is priced a bit higher than $3k to start, it will be interesting to see if it depresses demand or somehow creates a small bounce for the XV, as a lower cost alternative. (My money is on the former and Leica's money appears to be the same as they push inventory out the door) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carduelis Posted April 2, 2014 Share #127 Posted April 2, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Being an owner of the Leica X Vario, Ricoh GXR with A12 mount and Leica M240 with some really excellent Leica M lenses, I suppose I can count myself as fortunate particularly in being able to afford them, especially when I encounter poverty on my travels to much poorer countries than the UK where I reside. I think it is easy to get caught up in a GAS mentality and to start worrying about price and value for money and whether you have the latest technology. I am now feeling increasingly determined (particularly after reading this thread) to stick with what I have acquired and to practice more with these cameras to overcome their intricacies and improve my photographic skills. I know all three cameras can adequately cover my various photographic applications and can provide me with very sharp images from corner to corner at A3/A3+ size which is the largest sized image that I aspire to and can print. They are therefore good enough for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feudal1 Posted April 7, 2014 Share #128 Posted April 7, 2014 I bought an X Vario last summer. And after a couple of days and some limited shooting, decided it wasn't worth the high cost compared to the Fuji X series of cameras. The XV images were really nice (I had posted some on the XV photos thread here), but I felt that the Fuji X cameras provided more value for my hard-earned money compared to the XV. I shot with an X-Pro 1 and some Fuji glass for awhile, but wasn't entirely satisfied. The OOC JPG are pretty good, though not as good as Leica. However, the ACR handling of Fuji's X-Trans sensor raw data isn't good at all. And unfortunately, the Fuji X cameras seem to apply some level of noise reduction in the JPG images, even at low ISO, with NR dialed all the way down. I recently "upgraded" to their new X-T1, but was dismayed to see even worse smearing of fine detail, and tweaked colors that are too saturated and unrealistic for my taste. I took some nice photos with the X-T1, but was unhappy with others. The final issue for me was the handling of the camera, especially the buttons on the back, which are essentially flush with the body, and hard to use if you have bigger hands. I just couldn't get comfortable with it, and despite all of the glowing reviews, I got rid of the X-T1 in pretty short order. Needless to say, I started looking at other small cameras. The Micro Four Thirds didn't appeal. The smaller cameras from Nikon/Canon/Sony also did not appeal. But then I happened across an article talking about the price drop on the black Leica X Vario. Thought about it for a few days (to avoid it being an impulse buy), and decided to purchase a new black XV, along with grip, EVF, and extra batteries. Still more expensive compared to the Fuji X series, but based on a day of shooting in Washington, DC yesterday, I can say that I'm pleased with the images coming from the camera, and that I truly enjoyed shooting the X Vario more than I ever did with the Fuji X cameras (primarily because of the handling, which of course, is up to personal preference). I'm going to add some new images from my DC outing to the XV photo thread shortly, but wanted to post here about how pleased I am that the prices were dropped on the black XV. There may be a new model coming in the fall, and if that is the reason for the price drop on the black XV, so be it. I'm happy, because it brought me back around to the very fine Leica X Vario, at what I consider to be a more reasonable price. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted April 7, 2014 Share #129 Posted April 7, 2014 The XV images were really nice (I had posted some on the XV photos thread here), but I felt that the Fuji X cameras provided more value for my hard-earned money compared to the XV. The most expensive camera is the one you never use ......... I have a cupboard full of these ultra expensive beasts ....... Fuji.... Nikon .... Sony .... ... all wonderful in some aspects but distinctly lacking in all round appeal and usability.... I have produced more good images from my XV in the last few months than its more expensive Leica big brothers have in the preceding year .... and at the end of the day that is all that counts........ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feudal1 Posted April 8, 2014 Share #130 Posted April 8, 2014 The most expensive camera is the one you never use ......... I have a cupboard full of these ultra expensive beasts ....... Fuji.... Nikon .... Sony .... ... all wonderful in some aspects but distinctly lacking in all round appeal and usability.... I have produced more good images from my XV in the last few months than its more expensive Leica big brothers have in the preceding year .... and at the end of the day that is all that counts........ Couldn't have said it better myself. The XV is enjoyable to use, and that's a big part of the experience for me, in some ways, almost as important as the image itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted April 9, 2014 Share #131 Posted April 9, 2014 I bought an X Vario last summer. And after a couple of days and some limited shooting, decided it wasn't worth the high cost compared to the Fuji X series of cameras. The XV images were really nice (I had posted some on the XV photos thread here), but I felt that the Fuji X cameras provided more value for my hard-earned money compared to the XV. I shot with an X-Pro 1 and some Fuji glass for awhile, but wasn't entirely satisfied. The OOC JPG are pretty good, though not as good as Leica. However, the ACR handling of Fuji's X-Trans sensor raw data isn't good at all. And unfortunately, the Fuji X cameras seem to apply some level of noise reduction in the JPG images, even at low ISO, with NR dialed all the way down. I recently "upgraded" to their new X-T1, but was dismayed to see even worse smearing of fine detail, and tweaked colors that are too saturated and unrealistic for my taste. I took some nice photos with the X-T1, but was unhappy with others. The final issue for me was the handling of the camera, especially the buttons on the back, which are essentially flush with the body, and hard to use if you have bigger hands. I just couldn't get comfortable with it, and despite all of the glowing reviews, I got rid of the X-T1 in pretty short order.e. I agree I have had the x-pro1 and x100s Fuji raws are very over rated, / Sean Reid implied that Fuji would have been better quality with the conventional Bayer pattern. Doesn't compare to Leica and Sony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 9, 2014 Share #132 Posted April 9, 2014 Of course, if you use a raw developer that can handle the files instead of relying upon reviews, "implication" and internet hearsay... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colonel Posted April 9, 2014 Share #133 Posted April 9, 2014 Of course, if you use a raw developer that can handle the files instead of relying upon reviews, "implication" and internet hearsay... Perhaps you should read my post again. I had these cameras and used LR and silkypix The raw lacks detail and has all sorts of issues. Fan boy defence counts for nothing against facts Sony and Leica is far superior Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted April 9, 2014 Share #134 Posted April 9, 2014 ...Fan boy defence counts for nothing against facts... ! [returns to real world] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted April 9, 2014 Share #135 Posted April 9, 2014 Children, behave! Alternatively, use a real Leica if the others upset your appetites. (Intended as fair warning about manners and attitudes.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 9, 2014 Share #136 Posted April 9, 2014 Perhaps you should read my post again.I had these cameras and used LR and silkypix The raw lacks detail and has all sorts of issues. Fan boy defence counts for nothing against facts Sony and Leica is far superior I've not noticed any issues other than rather poor edge performance. Using Leica lenses there appears to be quite a bit of smearing with all the lenses I've tried - 15mm to 50mm. The only Fuji lens I have, the 18mm f2, is also disappointingly soft at the edges. That may well be that individual lens, I'll get a better idea when my 'free' 35mm f1.4 arrives from Fuji. Based on my experience so far the M8/M9 produce better results with Leica lenses, however a used M9 is several times the cost of an X-Pro 1. If I get a chance I'll take some photos with a Leica lens used on the X-Pro and M8 and post details of the edge performance in both cases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikej Posted April 10, 2014 Share #137 Posted April 10, 2014 The most expensive camera is the one you never use ......... I have a cupboard full of these ultra expensive beasts ....... Fuji.... Nikon .... Sony .... ... all wonderful in some aspects but distinctly lacking in all round appeal and usability.... I have produced more good images from my XV in the last few months than its more expensive Leica big brothers have in the preceding year .... and at the end of the day that is all that counts........ Hi, all - loyal forum members will remember that not so many years ago, Leica was circling the drain financially, left in the digital dust by other makers. To my mind, selling cameras at a good margin to a broader base of buyers (including folks with money who aren't necessarily photography enthusiasts) allows the company to survive and to develop superior products towards the high end of the market that really appeal to the core Leica devotees. As long as Leica products at all price points continue to be of (relatively) high quality, the brand damage from diversification should be minimal. IQ is King, but users also require a satisfying user experience to produce the shots or the hardware will end up in the cupboard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuny Posted April 10, 2014 Share #138 Posted April 10, 2014 Mike - A parallel to this is Porsche. Their Cayenne, which accounts for 50% to 60% of their sales, plus their Panamera (perhaps another 25% of their sales) lets them make 911, Boxster and Cayman models. And they've jsut released a smaller brother to the Cayenne. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmldds Posted April 10, 2014 Share #139 Posted April 10, 2014 Mike - A parallel to this is Porsche. Their Cayenne, which accounts for 50% to 60% of their sales, plus their Panamera (perhaps another 25% of their sales) lets them make 911, Boxster and Cayman models. And they've jsut released a smaller brother to the Cayenne. According to Business Week, Volkswagen makes in average $23,200 from each 911 sold:D! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikej Posted April 11, 2014 Share #140 Posted April 11, 2014 Mike - A parallel to this is Porsche. Their Cayenne, which accounts for 50% to 60% of their sales, plus their Panamera (perhaps another 25% of their sales) lets them make 911, Boxster and Cayman models. And they've jsut released a smaller brother to the Cayenne. That's right, Stu. And as I recall, they had to drag the loyalists kicking and screaming to profitability. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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