M8 Gallery new project

[charlesphoto99]

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The sad part is that from your statements and images you seem to enjoy and endorse this activity

 

I'm just trying to paint the picture that htese people aren't stark raving mad college campus mass murderers. And yeah, it was kinda fun to run around in a tree farm with these guys on a nice sunny day. And it was totally absurd to then come home and then watch the evening news about the war in Iraq. One feels pretty silly.

 

I did photograph soldiers suffering from PTSD for a story in Seattle magazine this month. Good guys. I enjoyed and endorsed hanging with them as well.

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[Guest guy_mancuso]

Well i don't look into this any further than the images presented which i think from a shooters prepective a very nice job and a nice body of work. The M8 looks like it handled the situation very well indeed.

 

But since others have touched on the emotional side lets think about PRETEND for a second and from a boys prespective . Did we all not as children play Cowboys and Indians/Cops and Robbers/Bad guy versus Good guy etc etc etc and did we not have pretend guns in our hands when we did that or the new Gen X play Laser tag, paint ball games etc etc etc. So I know some folks want to play enact a war but on the same token it's okay that they do this every year here in AZ a reinactment on the Cival War or any war for that matter. yes i agree Vietnam was a terrible war and maybe something we should not been a part of but your bringing in politics into this which is the wrong way to think about this. No war is play time but we were always playing let's pretend since we could stand and hold a plastic gun in our hands so what makes this so different. Just a different prespective

[tashley]

. I'd rather that people play at being soldier than play with real soldiers.

 

 

A very good point indeed!

 

t

[rvaubel]

The sad part is that from your statements and images you seem to enjoy and endorse this activity

 

Just as interesting as Charles' photos are the readers comments.

 

It seems as that, as usual, the comments have split into two groups. The "it's OK, just boys with there toys" crowd and the "but the horrors of war make this all damnable" group.

 

I must say however, that there is nothing really any different in this group of re-inactors and the Civil War buffs. Except of course that the Civil War was a much bloodier and horrible war.

 

Rex

[wattsy]

I must say that I am surprised by all the fuss in this thread. War reenactment is a pretty well known popular pastime in many countries - not just the USA - and is surely a perfectly legitimate subject to document? As for the documented activity itself- no doubt it is rather childish, but the whole thing looks pretty harmless to me. No different really from adults building model train sets in their attic.

[wattsy]

The sad part is that from your statements and images you seem to enjoy and endorse this activity

 

Does it matter if a photographer is sympathetic to, or a willing participant in, the activity being documented? And if so, are we supposed to judge the images differently? There are countless examples of powerful images that could be criticised on these grounds. Off the top of my head, I can think of Larry Clark's Tulsa images, images taken by SS soldiers (presumably with Leicas), and shots of KKK lynchings, etc.

[Venkman]

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Well said Ian, in both postings. Couldn't agree more.

 

Dirk

[Guest stnami]

If comparing a group of non directional group of images with Larry Clark's Tulsa is your path then on your way boys enjoy.................. boom boom bang bang!!!

[nzav]

I'm just trying to paint the picture that htese people aren't stark raving mad college campus mass murderers. And yeah, it was kinda fun to run around in a tree farm with these guys on a nice sunny day. And it was totally absurd to then come home and then watch the evening news about the war in Iraq. One feels pretty silly.

 

I did photograph soldiers suffering from PTSD for a story in Seattle magazine this month. Good guys. I enjoyed and endorsed hanging with them as well.

 

Charles, please ignore Imants (stnami); you and anyone else on this forum need not feel an apologetic response to him is necessary. He consistantly launches into diatribes against posters and has an attitude of superiority that is obvious in every post. He is talented, but in a very narrow scope, so anything outside of that scope does not meet with his approval.

 

I for one, would never respond to his comments, and if others did the same, perhaps he would find another forum to haunt.

[Guest sirvine]

Phrases like "non directional group of images" are more nonsensical and vapid than these photographs might be. Such puffery is generally attributable to the "big fish, small pond" phenomenon, coupled with too many years in some private ivory tower. It's one thing to push artists to exceed their current grasp, and something different to prance naked in the streets claiming to be Emperor.

[charlesphoto99]

Hey, thanks for the comments...except, yeah, tsnami, who, upon checking his website has some of the most "non-directional group of images" I've ever seen. Gay pride parades -so cutting edge with such a strong narrative. Hmmmm???

 

Anyway, this was only an afternoon and not meant to be anything more than an afternoon. Whether it turns into a bigger project remains to be seen. And yes, I think if it had of been Civil War re-enactors it would have been the old "nice shots Joe" kind of thing. Vietnam brings out strong emotions, I'm aware of that. I've visited the country five times now - I have to say they moved on a long time ago.

 

Normally I would have shot this kind of thing on film - I was considering using medium format, but with the purchase of the M8 it seemed like a natural fit (and no $ for film). Except for the little lock up it handled nicely. I had to wear protective eyeglasses so the frames were a bit hard to see. For some reason I didn't feel as loose with it as my previous Ms, but I think that will come with using it. The camera seemed to handle being "out of focus" better than other digital cameras I've used, and the Alien Skin is a nice filter, esp as I prefer a more film-like look. IR filters but no coding were used on all the lenses except the VC 15 which had a very different color balance in LR.

 

I think this is the ideal camera for mini-projects like this. I have a couple of longer running projects I will still continue with film (medium format primarily). The players thought it was the coolest camera because it looked "old" yet here I was checking out a screen on the back. My dream companion to the M8 - a Rolleiflex 2.8F digital TLR!!

[stunsworth]

Charles, if these had been taken during the war we'd all be saying how great they were. But context is _everything_. We know they weren't taken then. We know that they are essentially grown up men playing at solidiers and that leads to a very strange feeling, the main question being why are they doing it? What are their motives?

 

In addition they _are_ different to civil war recreationalists (we have them over here in the UK too, but we had our civil war earlier than the US :-) if only for the fact that there is no one alive who was around during the civil war, no one who had friends or relatives maimed or killed, no one who's life was ruined for ever by what happened in the conflict. It's the relarively contemporary nature of what they are recreating that I find disturbing - notice that I find them disturbing, not your decision to photograph them. How would people in NY feel if there was a 9/11 society recreating the horrors that happened there? Perhaps with people jumping out of windows onto cushioned platforms (after all they wouldn't want anyone to get injured would they?) and faux firemen attempting to rescue people

 

As for Imants, we've had 'issues' in the past, but I see him as the piece of grit that helps make the pearl. There's a lot of mutual back-slapping sometimes and he help to keep things in proportion.

 

End of rant ;-)

[charlesphoto99]

Charles, if these had been taken during the war we'd all be saying how great they were. But context is _everything_. We know they weren't taken then. We know that they are essentially grown up men playing at solidiers and that leads to a very strange feeling, the main question being why are they doing it? What are their motives?

 

In addition they _are_ different to civil war recreationalists (we have them over here in the UK too, but we had our civil war earlier than the US :-) if only for the fact that there is no one alive who was around during the civil war, no one who had friends or relatives maimed or killed, no one who's life was ruined for ever by what happened in the conflict. It's the relarively contemporary nature of what they are recreating that I find disturbing - notice that I find them disturbing, not your decision to photograph them. How would people in NY feel if there was a 9/11 society recreating the horrors that happened there? Perhaps with people jumping out of windows onto cushioned platforms (after all they wouldn't want anyone to get injured would they?) and faux firemen attempting to rescue people

 

As for Imants, we've had 'issues' in the past, but I see him as the piece of grit that helps make the pearl. There's a lot of mutual back-slapping sometimes and he help to keep things in proportion.

 

End of rant ;-)

 

Hi Steve,

 

I agree with you. It was disturbing for me to go home and watch the news after that. It brought up a lot of questions, which is the point of taking these photos!

 

I guess the UK is the hotbed of WWII re-enacting (I plan on shooting some of them here as well). Now, there are still a lot of people alive from that conflict. Does the re-enacting bring up horrors or make them proud that young people are interested in their history? I don't know the answer to that, but part of the problem with Vietnam is that we lost! And keep in mind that a lot of the generals (and politicians) that have us in Iraq now are ex-Vietnam era. Have we learned at all from history? My girlfriend is German (she's 34), and she has less of a problem with the Vietnam thing than with the WWII thing (the Nazi uniforms etc). So, yeah, it brings up a lot of questions.

 

Anyway, it's all very strange and I'm glad to have this discussion. And yes, I won't let Imants get to me as that's the whole point of him being on here! I'm a bit sick today so maybe not as thoughtful as I'd like to be.

[earleygallery]

Charles,

 

The photos are excellent as a piece of social documentary, but the debate that your posting has created is very interesting. I don't know, but it seems we now live in an overly PC world, when one can't refer to anything even slightly controversial. OK to want to dress up and re-enact the Vietnam war might be questionable, I too wonder what the motivation for it is, what the people get out of it - definately the basis for a project. As has been said if it was something like a Vikings or WW1 re-enactment I'm sure the comments would have been all positive. Perhaps its a case of how recent the history is.

 

I went to an exhibition recently of photographs of skinheads taken in the 70's/80's. I thought it was an excellent body of work, looking at it artistically & as social documentary. The photograher told me he is always being asked about racism, when he was just recording a period in time and was interested in the fashion and music.

 

If someone finds the images you posted offensive, then that's their personal taste and right of course, and I do understand why that could be. Not so long ago there was much debate here about a nude - it was a provocative image which I personally didn't find of much merit but others thought differently, and there was an outcry when the Mods dared to censor it! There are lines of course but nothing I've mentioned has come even near to it.

 

But to find something interesting, is one automatically condoning it, supporting it? I don't think so. What of the work of the war photographers like Capa or McCullen? Should they have stayed at home too?

[Guest stnami]

Seems that there is a willingness to join an army and attack the individual,repeat the lines presnted. Yes the wounded army gets bitter ................... atleast this play army here doesn't have to watch its back the photographers have collected in mass............ let the new offensive begin, snide remark tactic was a no show guys...... Sol I admire your misconceptions

[Guest Olof]

Sorry but i dont think that it is worth of taking pictures from peoples who playing war. There are so many places in these world where they plea for peace, and these guys thinks its a nice adventure game...