ALD Posted January 11, 2014 Share #41 Posted January 11, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) Just prior to Christmas, I took the plunge on replacing my Nikon gear with a new Leica system. I bought the new M 240 with 6 lenses. To my dismay, two of the lenses had to be replaced and the camera also needs to go back due to the line that appears at ISO 640. I really don't understand who these issues get past Leica who seem to pride themselves on quality. To say I'm unimpressed is an understatement. I am very sorry that you experienced this. It's not typical but I really feel for you and your anger is understandable. I hope you trust us on this forum when we say that once you get past this bad patch you will enjoy your leica system very much and it will bring you happiness in your photography hobby. We will try and give you some extra support here to try make up for your bad luck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Hi ALD, Take a look here More quality Control Issues. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ALD Posted January 11, 2014 Share #42 Posted January 11, 2014 It appears that your knowledge of production technologies is several decades outdated. LOL. I sincerely hope Leica does not operate this way. Have you heard of quality by design, mistake proofing, quality at the source, six sigma, etc., to mention a few? Don't worry Jaap knows more than enough to be very helpful to many people on this forum who really appreciate his presence due to his knowledge and moderation work. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #43 Posted January 11, 2014 Hi Jaap, you are kidding me on the cosmic ray stuff? Or is there an implication that you can’t air travel with these cameras:oNo I am not kidding you. It is well established that all sensors suffer this problem. Fortunately the occurrence is fairly rare and the damage can be corrected by the factory (several smaller sensor cameras have inbuilt pixel mapping facilities).There is little that the owner can do; although I fondly believe that carrying the camera vertically will reduce the target enough to make the occurrence extremely rare. Some manufacturers ship their cameras by sea and land for exactly this reason. You’ll find a warning in the manual (and not just in the Leica manual. (Disclaimer: I have not chacked the M manual. It is certainly in the M8 and M9 one.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #44 Posted January 11, 2014 It appears that your knowledge of production technologies is several decades outdated. LOL. I sincerely hope Leica does not operate this way. Have you heard of quality by design, mistake proofing, quality at the source, six sigma, etc., to mention a few? It appears to me that the production methods of Leica escape you. A visit to the factory might be an eye-opener. It is exactly what the customers appreciate about the brand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwbell Posted January 11, 2014 Share #45 Posted January 11, 2014 Gosh. Who would have guessed the route this thread would take? Hahaha! Awesome stuff. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #46 Posted January 11, 2014 Given that these cameras and lenses are hand built, of course some will have problems. It is the QC system that needs a total overhaul. Over 40% of the new or bought from coming back from full service Leica lenses I have bought over the last 10 years, have had a problem from new. 50% of the CV lenses I have bought have had a problem from new and the last two developed problems soon afterwards. 0% of the 6 Zeiss lenses (4 ZM; 2 old stock but new Contax) I have bought over the last 10 years have had a fault and 0% of the 11 Zeiss lenses I have bought over the last 30 years have had a fault. It is particularly telling that modern ZM lenses are made in the same factory that makes the appalling unreliable CV lenses. Zeiss apparently have a very particular and strict QC methodology and employ their own inspectors in the CV plant. It took me roughly 30 seconds with an M240 to determine that my new Noctilux had RF which did not match optical focus by some margin. Why on earth was this not picked up in QC? Was it done at all? Was the inspector off at morning coffee when this lens came through and just signed it anyway? I think Leica need to hold postmortems when obviously faulty items are returned and get answers from the QC team as to why they were passed. A wholesale change in testing methodologies, ethos and working practices is called for. Wilson That is indeed a valid point Wilson. The infrastructure of the current Leica plant appears to hamper the process I think. The proof will come when Leica has its new facility up and running. However, the human factor will be the crucial one. I hope to see a steady decline of threads like this in the coming years. Actually, it is very noticeable that the number of out-of-the box complaints in the forum for the M typ 240 and the Monochrom is significantly smaller than it used to be for the M9 and even more the M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #47 Posted January 11, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) No I am not kidding you. It is well established that all sensors suffer this problem. Fortunately the occurrence is fairly rare and the damage can be corrected by the factory (several smaller sensor cameras have inbuilt pixel mapping facilities).There is little that the owner can do; although I fondly believe that carrying the camera vertically will reduce the target enough to make the occurrence extremely rare. Some manufacturers ship their cameras by sea and land for exactly this reason. You’ll find a warning in the manual (and not just in the Leica manual. (Disclaimer: I have not chacked the M manual. It is certainly in the M8 and M9 one.) Wow, now this is enough to make you paranoid of taking your camera on holiday with you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #48 Posted January 11, 2014 Please don’t . There is no need to. Yes, you may, in rare circumstances get a hot pixel or even line. But it may happen in your bedroom at sea level too albeit even less often. Easily corrected in post, easily mapped out by your camera maker, sensor replacements, if required because of tolerance span, are free even out of warranty. I haven’t had a line in over a decade of shooting digitally and flying long haul once or twice a year. Although, given a choice, I will avoid the transpolar routes when carrying a camera I care about That is my personal paranoia. I won’t stay at a hotel that is next to a transmission mast for cellphones or directly under power lines either, with or without camera:o. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALD Posted January 11, 2014 Share #49 Posted January 11, 2014 Can cosmic rays hurt you? On rare occasions a cosmic ray can probably cause enough damage to a cell in a human body to lead to cancer. Around 1 in every 1000 deaths from cancer in the UK may be due to cosmic rays. But the changes that cosmic rays sometimes make in a cell could also be beneficial. In this way they may have played an important role in the evolution of life on Earth. leaflet.3. It could be worse then you think, another member of this forum suggested wearing tin foil hats, perhaps we need to wrap our cameras in tin foil or would it be a lead foil? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #50 Posted January 11, 2014 It would need to be many meters of concrete instead of tin foil…Yes, there may be health concerns. There is a medical discussion about the incidence of brain tumours especially Myeloma in air crew on the transpolar route (and astronauts, but that group is too small for valid statistics) There are certainly biological effects. Cosmic rays are indeedthe only reason we are here at all. Evolution is driven by mutations through cosmic ray damage to DNA. But shall we get back to Leica and QC? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALD Posted January 11, 2014 Share #51 Posted January 11, 2014 I was not happy with the M8 but I was new to photography as an art form technician as opposed to a scenographer or photographers friend and model. I was using it with a Carl zeiss distagon 18mm f4. I never understood that the lens only works in the brightest of conditions. I think my rangefinder was also misbehaving, but I never knew this at the time. It bothered me that it was not full framed and I never thought it had higher enough resolution. I love the m9 but today for instance an overcast day and I am shooting at a kids birthday party, I set the aperture on 35mm Summilux at f1.4 and cranked the ISO up to 850 and still I was getting dark pictures, the rangefinder focussing is difficult at f1,4 as the centra boxes seen to combine are just to small I love high resolution cameras that perform in low Light and don't produce grainy pictures. I hoped leica fixes this on a new monochrome which I will buy with the app-sum micron 50 mm if they fix it and sell some quality ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALD Posted January 11, 2014 Share #52 Posted January 11, 2014 It would need to be many meters of concrete instead of tin foil…Yes, there may be health concerns. There is a medical discussion about the incidence of brain tumours especially Myeloma in air crew on the transpolar route (and astronauts, but that group is too small for valid statistics)There are certainly biological effects. Cosmic rays are indeedthe only reason we are here at all. Evolution is driven by mutations through cosmic ray damage to DNA. But shall we get back to Leica and QC? Could you start a thread on cosmic rays I want to be educated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #53 Posted January 11, 2014 There are several ones a few years back. When you find them I will probably move them to the digital forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 11, 2014 Share #54 Posted January 11, 2014 I seem to have upset a few people with this post, please accept my apologies. I'm just sharing my experience. I really do love the system, it is everything I was looking for and the images are just outstanding. All I want is it to function as expected. I believe that the true test of a company is how it deals with problems. In this respect, I can't fault Leica so far. When looking at each individual problem, none prevented me from using the camera, I just higher expectations. The pi**ed off index is directly related to the amount discharged from the wallet. I'd be pretty fed up too. Luckily Leica tend to puts things right fairly quickly Leica Mayfair have more stock throughput than anywhere else in the UK so you shouldn't be held up for long .... if at all... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 11, 2014 Share #55 Posted January 11, 2014 It took me roughly 30 seconds with an M240 to determine that my new Noctilux had RF which did not match optical focus by some margin. Why on earth was this not picked up in QC? Was it done at all? Was the inspector off at morning coffee when this lens came through and just signed it anyway? I think Leica need to hold postmortems when obviously faulty items are returned and get answers from the QC team as to why they were passed. A wholesale change in testing methodologies, ethos and working practices is called for. Wilson I think the lens and rangefinder QC control issues are probably greater than we think. As a green M9 user I struggled manfully with a selection of lenses in the naive assumption that the rangefinder was perfectly calibrated and the lenses ok. 2x 50/1.4's, 75/2 and 18/3.4 were all out of spec and the rangefinder off .... so it was no wonder I could not get consistently accurate focussing. I think many users blissfully snap away unaware of problems and just put down OOF shots wide open to user error.... I would urge anyone with a new M and/or lenses to mount up on a tripod and try all their lenses with 'optical' versus 'focus peaking' focussing at near and mid distances plus check optical image coincidence in the rangefinder at infinity for 35mm+. It will save a lot of frustration later.... and will only take up 10 minutes of your time.... I have given up on Leicas ability to adjust the rangefinder mechanism to the the tolerances I expect ...... so I do it myself....... including the latest M which was also out by just enough to make using a 75/2 wide open a lottery..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
farnz Posted January 11, 2014 Share #56 Posted January 11, 2014 … There is little that the owner can do; although I fondly believe that carrying the camera vertically will reduce the target enough to make the occurrence extremely rare. ... Since cosmic rays approach from all directions, particularly Neutrinos that travel through the earth, vertical with respect to what, Jaap? Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #57 Posted January 11, 2014 I can see Jaap dressed up as the Green Lantern, frantically moving his camera in all different directions faster than light, thus escaping those frightening rays but also at risk of moving his camera back in time. Sh*t, on the waiting list again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 11, 2014 Share #58 Posted January 11, 2014 Have you all read the latest thread, another new Noctilux has been delivered with its aperture ring fitted on backwards!! How the hell can this happen, and then how can someone personally sign a card saying the lens has been inspected by them before leaving the factory? It's beyond belief. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted January 11, 2014 Share #59 Posted January 11, 2014 Agreed. That one in particular with the aperture ring on backwards on a lens so expensive is just really taking the piss IMO. Leica are truly dropping the ball at the moment and it is not acceptable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pop Posted January 11, 2014 Share #60 Posted January 11, 2014 Since cosmic rays approach from all directions, particularly Neutrinos that travel through the earth, vertical with respect to what, Jaap? Pete. I think Jaap refers to the electrons and protons mostly, which are deflected by the van Allen belts and which are known to interact with matter. It'd be a rather tiring task to get your sensor to interact with a Neutrino, I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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