Guest redge Posted January 11, 2014 Share #21 Posted January 11, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have owned an M 240 for a month. So far, the camera is working perfectly. Here is what lethbrp wrote 10 days ago: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/315074-should-i-reconsider.html#post2592817 If one looks at his earlier posts, there was a good deal of angst about buying the camera in the first place, arising, as it turned out, from the fact that he is near sighted and didn't know about diopters. The ISO 640 issue, whatever it is about, is in fact not new. I am mostly surprised that two new lenses had the issues described. The problems sound minor, but at Leica's price point shouldn't happen. While I empathize with individual problems, it is not at all clear to me what percentage of users are running into problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 11, 2014 Posted January 11, 2014 Hi Guest redge, Take a look here More quality Control Issues. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jaapv Posted January 11, 2014 Share #22 Posted January 11, 2014 You are right. The sensor line issue is probably due to air transport (cosmic ray) damage as Barjohn points out in his inimitable manner. The lens issues are clearly avoidable and should be a cause of concern in Solms. It is unfortunate bad luck that the three converged in one order. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
k_g_wolf ✝ Posted January 11, 2014 Share #23 Posted January 11, 2014 LEICA sells thousands of products, a few promille of these have issues IMO and their owners - sometimes understandably of course - are laying out their affair on the stage of such forums. Within a short time this number feels like a high percentage of total production, but that´s seems to be the price of todays internet communication. A modern company has to deal with such circumstances. Hope, LEICA irons out your complains soon, redge. Best GEORG Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redge Posted January 11, 2014 Share #24 Posted January 11, 2014 Hope, LEICA irons out your complains soon, redge. I think that you kinda misread my post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magosak Posted January 11, 2014 Share #25 Posted January 11, 2014 Maybe - But any manufacturer that has humans building his products runs up against the same problem. If robots build your product the failures are systematic, so quality control only has to pull apart one item in many thousands to determine that an error has occurred. With handmade products the errors are random, so one would have to do a full dismantled test on each product to achieve the same level of control, or have an inspector checking each single production step. That costs serious money, money that no customer would be prepared to pay. Nevertheless the customer expects -rightly- that a premium product is flawless. The manufacturer is caught between a rock and a hard place.. Leica is expanding. It will have to invest extra care in this aspect to maintain its reputation. It appears that your knowledge of production technologies is several decades outdated. LOL. I sincerely hope Leica does not operate this way. Have you heard of quality by design, mistake proofing, quality at the source, six sigma, etc., to mention a few? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest redge Posted January 11, 2014 Share #26 Posted January 11, 2014 It appears that your knowledge of production technologies is several decades outdated. LOL. I sincerely hope Leica does not operate this way. Have you heard of quality by design, mistake proofing, quality at the source, six sigma, etc., to mention a few? Since you are evidently an expert, how about you explain it to us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #27 Posted January 11, 2014 Advertisement (gone after registration) There is nothing wrong with Leica's QC, I'm sure when they left the factory all was perfect. However, you failed to protect the sensor from solar gama radiation, hence your stripe an didn't handle and protect the lenses adequately from undue torque, shaking or other mechanical things when mounting or unmounting lenses. You clearly didn't understand that when posters on this forum say Leica gear is rugged and well built, solid, etc., they mean rugged looking and feeling, NOT actually ruggedly made. How can they know if it is well built or actually rugged? They ahve never taken one apart and compared the build to any other "rugged" camera. I thought I would go ahead and be the first to blame you before the others jump in. Of course they will be more subtle with questions like did you fully discharge the battery 27 times and triple check the charge before putting it back in the camera? Or, your SD card is clearly defective, did you format it in the camera and the computer or on the computer? If you didn't use magic formatter its no wonder you broke the camera. Coming from Nikon you just aren't used to aperture rings. You have to twist it like a nipple, very gently, not like you are trying to tune in Mars on the radio. V funny Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #28 Posted January 11, 2014 FWIW, it might be worth keeping in mind that there is no such thing as a perfect camera or a perfect camera manufacturer. Any camera made by anyone will have its flaws. Anyone remember Nikon oil splats induced by mirror swing that lasted for more than 2 years? My new Sony A7R with its Zeiss 35mm lens sometimes produces huge green dots in photos taken into or near the sun (giving new meaning to the term "lens flare"). Or how about a thoroughly worthless users manual for the new Sony A7R? That is not to say that Leica could not do better in the QC department, however. I am willing to put up with the quirks of owning a Leica because I love the system and especially the lenses. The service I have received from Leica has always been outstanding, and probably far better than anything I could ever have hoped to receive from Nikon, Sony or any other camera manufacturer. Just my two cents. I am not complaining about their customer service, as you say, it very good indeed. But I wouldn't have expected to see this many issues. It's very frustrating and inconvenient to have to swap these items out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #29 Posted January 11, 2014 I have owned an M 240 for a month. So far, the camera is working perfectly. Here is what lethbrp wrote 10 days ago: http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m-type-240/315074-should-i-reconsider.html#post2592817 If one looks at his earlier posts, there was a good deal of angst about buying the camera in the first place, arising, as it turned out, from the fact that he is near sighted and didn't know about diopters. The ISO 640 issue, whatever it is about, is in fact not new. I am mostly surprised that two new lenses had the issues described. The problems sound minor, but at Leica's price point shouldn't happen. While I empathize with individual problems, it is not at all clear to me what percentage of users are running into problems. I'm not sure what my angst has to do with the defects. Yes, I was a little hesitant as I was about to reinvest nearly £30k of insurance money in a new system. However, I wouldn't have expected to experience such a high degree of issues that I did. I'm not faulting their customer service at all here, just their level of checking during the manufacturing stage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #30 Posted January 11, 2014 You are right. The sensor line issue is probably due to air transport (cosmic ray) damage as Barjohn points out in his inimitable manner. The lens issues are clearly avoidable and should be a cause of concern in Solms. It is unfortunate bad luck that the three converged in one order. Hi Jaap, you are kidding me on the cosmic ray stuff? Or is there an implication that you can't air travel with these cameras:o Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica1215 Posted January 11, 2014 Share #31 Posted January 11, 2014 You are right. The sensor line issue is probably due to air transport (cosmic ray) damage as Barjohn points out in his inimitable manner. The lens issues are clearly avoidable and should be a cause of concern in Solms. It is unfortunate bad luck that the three converged in one order. I also have similar problem "sensor line" not sure if firmware update can fix this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #32 Posted January 11, 2014 I also have similar problem "sensor line" not sure if firmware update can fix this? Having spoken to the Mayfair branch, they recommended swapping it out. They have seen a few cameras with this issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica1215 Posted January 11, 2014 Share #33 Posted January 11, 2014 Having spoken to the Mayfair branch, they recommended swapping it out. They have seen a few cameras with this issue. Thanks, by your means swapping it out means, update firmware or physically ask dealer to replace with another new M? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted January 11, 2014 Share #34 Posted January 11, 2014 people always say on these sort of threads words to the affect: 'all camera manufacturers have issues with QC, product failure, etc' and 'who can say what the Leica percentage is'... Well I don't buy it for a second. I have purchased digital cameras from Sony, Canon, Fuji, Hasselblad and Leica in the last 10 years. Only one brand has ever exhibited faults - brand new- out of the box: Leica. Only one brand has ever required warranty service or replacement: Leica. Sure this is purely anecdotal. However there is a great deal of anecdotal reportage from many other honest sources. Who would hazard a guess as to exactly what percentage of M240 cameras have been either repaired or replaced? Even excluding the lug recalls? I shudder to think... Speaking to Leica Australia several times about my own M- I heard more anecdotal evidence of many other m's with a variety of issues that they have/were sending back. My dealer has yet more anecdotal evidence. This forum has a great deal more. There are not that many of these cameras out there really- I would hazard a guess that only a few hundred have made to Australia if that- how many have gone back? Anecdotal evidence suggests a vast number: given that 1% failure rate would be considered quite high in an industry like this I would have thought. The question seems to be less: 'who has had to return their camera due to some issue or another?' as 'who hasn't had to return their camera?' Now we here more and more of M9's needing sensor replacements- I know my own that I sold failed for the new buyer 6 months later and was replaced gratis. I here of more here regularly. Then lenses: what is the failure rate? I really hope that Leica can improve on it- and manage all this extra work- it is no fun dealing with warranty issues... and I hope that the M240 turns out to be reliable over time- I really do love the cameras- and hope to use mine for many years to come. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #35 Posted January 11, 2014 Thanks, by your means swapping it out means, update firmware or physically ask dealer to replace with another new M? Replacing the camera with another new one. I suspect, therefore, its not possible to correct this issue via a firmware update. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
barjohn Posted January 11, 2014 Share #36 Posted January 11, 2014 Yes my post was meant to be sarcastic with a little humor thrown in. It seems all too often when a person writes a post with a problem he or she is experiencing with a Leica camera or lens the first reaction is to blame the poster for the problem and to imply it is because the poster did something wrong. When I posted that I was experiencing AF problems with my XV the typical responses were I was doing something wrong, didn't know how to use AF, nothing was wrong with their XVs so it had to be me. It took a lot of time and work to do the analysis required to be able to prove that it was a defect in the camera. Even after proving it there were still posters blaming my AF techniques. Leica is replacing the lens assembly under warranty and I can only hope it is actually fixed (I don't have it back yet) and that nothing else was damaged while there. Which brings up my other complaint, it has taken since December 12th to get the camera repaired. I had a Fuji X100 that had a problem and the camera was back in my hands in less than a week. A premium product should have premium service. I buy a Mercedes because they give premium service and it is a quality product. My dealer provides a loaner and guarantees to have my in and out in a new loaner in under 10 minutes. That is service! It shows that they value my time and inconvenience and I appreciate that and continue to give them business. Yes, I pay more for a Mercedes than an equivalent Ford but I know I won't get that kind of service from Ford either. Leica is selling a premium priced product and should provide premium service. The fact is that they don't. Thirty to sixty days or more for repairs is not premium service. They need to hire and train more technicians, they clearly have the volume. Last point. Several posts here allude to the fact that all cameras are imperfect and other manufacturers have problems too. I would say from reading posts on a variety of vendors, Fuji, Sony, Panasonic, Olympus and occasionally Nikon, I see no where near the number of problems that I see on this forum and these other manufacturers produce more cameras of a given popular model in a month than Leica does in a year. If they were having the number of issues I see in these threads at their volume levels they would be out of business because they would be inundated with repairs, returns and replacements. Most of the companies do use six sigma and other modern quality processes including meeting ISO 9000/9001 quality processes and management. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leica1215 Posted January 11, 2014 Share #37 Posted January 11, 2014 Replacing the camera with another new one. I suspect, therefore, its not possible to correct this issue via a firmware update. by the way, I am not familiar with Leica warranty policy, Can I request replacing new unit from a dealer where I bought it from? or dealer can only offer repair service from Leica? Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lethbrp Posted January 11, 2014 Author Share #38 Posted January 11, 2014 I seem to have upset a few people with this post, please accept my apologies. I'm just sharing my experience. I really do love the system, it is everything I was looking for and the images are just outstanding. All I want is it to function as expected. I believe that the true test of a company is how it deals with problems. In this respect, I can't fault Leica so far. When looking at each individual problem, none prevented me from using the camera, I just higher expectations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted January 11, 2014 Share #39 Posted January 11, 2014 Have you heard of quality by design, mistake proofing, quality at the source, six sigma, etc., to mention a few? Jaapv directly addressed Mistake Proofing in his post. Six Sigma implies that 99.99966% of the product is defect free, but the goal is never reached. They might approach the figure in-shop but failures upon application are not accounted for. IMHO, Six Sigma is one of those things that company execs, perhaps unconsciously, conspire to support for PR reasons, IOW, a delusion. So much for my rant. We simply do not know how representative our constituency is of the whole Leica customer base, and i will not dare to guess. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted January 11, 2014 Share #40 Posted January 11, 2014 Given that these cameras and lenses are hand built, of course some will have problems. It is the QC system that needs a total overhaul. Over 40% of the new or bought from coming back from full service Leica lenses I have bought over the last 10 years, have had a problem from new. 50% of the CV lenses I have bought have had a problem from new and the last two developed problems soon afterwards. 0% of the 6 Zeiss lenses (4 ZM; 2 old stock but new Contax) I have bought over the last 10 years have had a fault and 0% of the 11 Zeiss lenses I have bought over the last 30 years have had a fault. It is particularly telling that modern ZM lenses are made in the same factory that makes the appalling unreliable CV lenses. Zeiss apparently have a very particular and strict QC methodology and employ their own inspectors in the CV plant. It took me roughly 30 seconds with an M240 to determine that my new Noctilux had RF which did not match optical focus by some margin. Why on earth was this not picked up in QC? Was it done at all? Was the inspector off at morning coffee when this lens came through and just signed it anyway? I think Leica need to hold postmortems when obviously faulty items are returned and get answers from the QC team as to why they were passed. A wholesale change in testing methodologies, ethos and working practices is called for. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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